Coupe Prices

m5bb

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If that's available maybe my work is not worth the effort.

Well it was kind of ironic.
I saw this magazine in the family room and picked it up to look through to see if there was something I wanted to save. It was a Sept issue so headed for the round file recycle bin.
I flipped through the pages and saw this big ad.
I saw your post earlier that day and thought I should look at this and tell Chris.
Seems like he is doing a lot of the work for you that's why I thought you might like to see the web site.
Note though that the prices shown are what they sold at and does not mention the ones that didn't sell on eBay.
 

bwalvoord

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Somewhat related

I came across this website today.

www.vintagewheels.com

Did a search for BMW 2800CS and it brought up cars for sale in Europe and the US. I have not played around enough to know whether they archive winning bids or sales numbers.
 

Nitro

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#1:
vehicles are the best in the world. The visual image is of the best car, in the right colors, driving onto the lawn at the finest concours. Perfectly clean, the car has been groomed down to the tire treads. Painted and chromed surfaces are mirror-like. Dust and dirt are banned, and materials used are correct and superbly fitted. The one word description for #1 cars is "concours."

#2: could win a local or regional show. They can be former #1 cars that have been driven or have aged. Seasoned observers will have to look closely for flaws, but will be able to find some not seen by the general public. The paint, chrome, glass and interior will all appear as excellent. No excessive smoke will be seen on startup, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine compartment. The vehicle will drive as a new car of its era would. The one word description for #2 cars is "excellent."

#3: these possess some, but not all of the issues of a #4 car, but they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior. #3 cars drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These cars are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. "Good" is the one word description of a Hagerty Price Guide #3.

#4: daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the fender has a minor dent. The interior could have split seams or a cracked dash. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or the interior might not be stock. A #4 car can also be a deteriorated restoration. "Fair" is the one word that describes a Hagerty Price Guide #4 car

#5: these cars may be drivable but much mechanical work is needed, body needs complete restoration and new interior (this is my definition)


We could use some other criteria as this is skewed to higher end cars.





Your sheet fits for cars in general. However, it is not suitable for vintage cars since it does not take into account the originality comparing the present status with the delivery status some decades ago, including color, rims, engine, gear box etc.

Imho E9 with modifications such as 3.5 engines, 16” rims, painting other than original color, smaller steering wheels etc. can never get a #1 or #2 status. I call it the investment paradox: Devaluating a car by investing money for it. Maybe markets are different but in Europe you will definitely get the highest purchase prices for broadly original cars. This doesn’t exclude the exchange of parts as long as they are original.
E.g. in Italy the A.S.I (Automotoclub Storico Italiano) is the governing authority to grade a car as vintage car. An E9 will definitely not get a grading as vintage car if you put 16” rims on it. Therefore, E9 coming from Italy have a high reputation for their original status.
In Germany you find already more modified E9 since our administration used to be too careless or generous about these things for many years. However, the market is not careless: You will get the highest prices for original cars in perfect condition.

Maybe you should create different sheets, one for the US and one for Europe.
 

Strato102

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Your sheet fits for cars in general. However, it is not suitable for vintage cars since it does not take into account the originality comparing the present status with the delivery status some decades ago, including color, rims, engine, gear box etc.

Imho E9 with modifications such as 3.5 engines, 16” rims, painting other than original color, smaller steering wheels etc. can never get a #1 or #2 status. I call it the investment paradox: Devaluating a car by investing money for it. Maybe markets are different but in Europe you will definitely get the highest purchase prices for broadly original cars. This doesn’t exclude the exchange of parts as long as they are original.
E.g. in Italy the A.S.I (Automotoclub Storico Italiano) is the governing authority to grade a car as vintage car. An E9 will definitely not get a grading as vintage car if you put 16” rims on it. Therefore, E9 coming from Italy have a high reputation for their original status.
In Germany you find already more modified E9 since our administration used to be too careless or generous about these things for many years. However, the market is not careless: You will get the highest prices for original cars in perfect condition.

Maybe you should create different sheets, one for the US and one for Europe.

You speak the truth. Here, it's "just got my new car, gonna take out the numbers matching Djet and get a junkyard 7 series Motronic with an overdrive 5 speed as quick as I can". In the Porsche universe, for better or worse as it is, you don't take out a 2.2 MFI motor and upgrade it with anything. The above sentiments are only about value which this thread is about. Drive ability, comfort on trips, etc. not withstanding. Yeah, but that's what a newer 3 series is for because now you are talking about utility which is what the old car hobby is not about.
 

Ohmess

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Originality is a tough one. My car is relatively intact, but the original zeniths were gone in favor of Webers before I got the car, the head on the engine was replaced somewhere along the line with a 1979 casting, the alternator had been replaced with a unit that has an integrated voltage regulator, and of course, the prior owner had an aftermarket stereo installed. Worst of all, the car was painted a non-BMW color and the color of the interior was changed.

I have not set about reversing these changes and seeking to bring the car back to its original specifications; that is a decision for another day. For now, there is plenty to do to make the car reliable like remediating the wiring damage from the stereo install and replacing the exhaust and refreshing the suspension and whatnot. I would hope all of this will enhance her value.

Then there are things where the change is relatively easy, readily reversible and to my liking. I disliked the US headlights, and changed mine to the European lights. Safer driving at night and they look better. I doubt this hurts the car's value.

The original lap belts are more than 40 years old and I feel pretty vulnerable driving with only a lap belt, so I am upgrading the seat belts. There may be an originality hit here, but I will be safer.

I also have changed the chrome kidney grill for a black one just because I like the look of black and added a set of Cocomats because they protect the floor well and make the car a little quieter.

Perhaps one day I will seek to return the car to its original specification. Then again, if I get around to painting her, I may decide that Malaga is preferable to Polaris Silver. Oh well.
 

Stevehose

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If and when the CS ownership group expands from predominantly enthusiasts (who freely mod the car for the reasons already stated) to include more specualtors who want the tried and true formula of originality, originality will eventually command higher prices as proven in other marques. Both groups have their merits, supply and demand will determine the rest.

In the meantime I make my mods to increase the fun factor and chuck the old parts in a box for the next guy to reverse if he so chooses.

So perhaps including a category for originality would prove useful down the road.
 

Stan

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You speak the truth. Here, it's "just got my new car, gonna take out the numbers matching Djet and get a junkyard 7 series Motronic with an overdrive 5 speed as quick as I can". In the Porsche universe, for better or worse as it is, you don't take out a 2.2 MFI motor and upgrade it with anything. The above sentiments are only about value which this thread is about. Drive ability, comfort on trips, etc. not withstanding. Yeah, but that's what a newer 3 series is for because now you are talking about utility which is what the old car hobby is not about.

I need to disagree a bit. There are many vintage BMW events that are anywhere from 4 hours to 5 days drive. I for one feel much more comfortable driving from NH to NC (or CA for that matter) with a bit more reliability. The coupes seem like a car that most owners like to "upgrade". Now if I had a 507.... another story entirely
 

adawil2002

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I need to disagree a bit. There are many vintage BMW events that are anywhere from 4 hours to 5 days drive. I for one feel much more comfortable driving from NH to NC (or CA for that matter) with a bit more reliability. The coupes seem like a car that most owners like to "upgrade". Now if I had a 507.... another story entirely


My 3.0CSi, Athena, is very close to the way it originally came from the factory.
To enhance the car I have larger anti sway bars, new Bilstien shocks & struts, an '86 head, triple core radiator and installing a 5-speed to increase mileage from 17 to 24.7+/-. Which comes out to 49-64 more miles per tank!

I still have D-jet and a 3.0 engine. When it's right it's great.

I believe all the mods listed enhance its' value while the car looks 100% stock.

The car is a pleasure to drive and handles like a moderrn BMW X3 now. I drive thousands of miles/km per year to shows as Stan does it can be hours or days away. I shoot for 100% reliability.

If I had a 507, I'd drive it the same as Athena & Vern, all over the eastern seaboard. I'd get "You drove all the way from MAINE!" just like I do now.

I bought my cars to drive, not as a monetary investment. Although the values have gone up, my enjoyment has increased more than the cars are worth. :grin:
 

deQuincey

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Your sheet fits for cars in general. However, it is not suitable for vintage cars since it does not take into account the originality comparing the present status with the delivery status some decades ago, including color, rims, engine, gear box etc.

Imho E9 with modifications such as 3.5 engines, 16” rims, painting other than original color, smaller steering wheels etc. can never get a #1 or #2 status. I call it the investment paradox: Devaluating a car by investing money for it. Maybe markets are different but in Europe you will definitely get the highest purchase prices for broadly original cars. This doesn’t exclude the exchange of parts as long as they are original.
E.g. in Italy the A.S.I (Automotoclub Storico Italiano) is the governing authority to grade a car as vintage car. An E9 will definitely not get a grading as vintage car if you put 16” rims on it. Therefore, E9 coming from Italy have a high reputation for their original status.
In Germany you find already more modified E9 since our administration used to be too careless or generous about these things for many years. However, the market is not careless: You will get the highest prices for original cars in perfect condition.

Maybe you should create different sheets, one for the US and one for Europe.


edit, if it is the case that my words moved to misunderstanding, and or disgust, my apologies

i would like to say that i fully agree with mr. nitro, i do think that originality is a plus when talking about a classic or vintage car, and that there is no chance to get a #1 for a modified car whichever improvements have been made in handling or driving safety, probably this way of thinking is more european, i do not know

the use of such words, was intended to be as a tribute both to ancient ways of pleasing someone that you appreciate his testimony together with a sympathetic tribute to german languaje: grussgott is used in bavarian region and other parts of old austrohungarian empire, or so they did told me,...
 
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HB Chris

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Maybe we should agree there are no Condition 1 coupes then? This is rapidly becoming more work than it is worth which was my fear from the beginning. The US is not Germany or Italy, period. And early Porsches here get modified and still command huge prices. Yes, original will still be worth more, I never said they wouldn't. Last month a highly modified 3.0CS here was sold for $100K, and it's not a CSL.
 

Arde

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By Friday the work week has my spleen raising its hand to say something.

And my spleen says that Porsches cannot teach a purism lesson when the famous Porsche 356 used VW Beetle engine cases. Or the fact that Ferdinand first designed a hybrid. Imagine that, a Porsche Prius by a war criminal being my role model. My spleen has spoken and is about to take the rest of the day off. Enjoy the weekend.

Back to Chris' idea, there are so few coupes how about we just list our price valuation next to the VIN in the registry? Like Zillow, list a figure as "Make me sell"...
 

Nicad

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Andy Warhol's print of an Elvis promo shot just sold for $88 Million. Are we valuing Coupe's in money? What is money worth…today?
 

Ski coach

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I get the feeling they're all priceless to us. It's really the buyers that assign them a number.
Cheers to a great group!
Chris
 

rsporsche

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if the car i bought was very original ... i'd keep it that way. but in the US, everybody seemed to try to make theirs better than BMW made it or the way BMW should have made it. perhaps that's our heritage because of the US car market.

my car came with a 3.5 (b34) transplant along with a 5 speed and a color change. so unless i sell it and go for a more original car - i will stay with the restomod theme. the interior is going to change colors, the scheel mann seats are going in, the rear seats are going to change to csl style, the petri is on, the coupeking alpinas will be back on as soon as the fender lips are rolled and the neg camber plates are on ... then the rear brakes, etc. go from drums to discs. then comes doing some truly working seatbelts ... then we will fix the b34 to be less anemic.

i bought the car to drive - not to maintain a museum piece. fact is, i love the coupe, always wanted one ... and i really don't care what its worth.
 

Peter Coomaraswamy

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I think Rob "the hack mechanic" said something in his book about walking away from his coupe and looking back it it in the parking space and having a feeling of pride and joy in the automobile itself. It seems like in a round-about way we're all saying the same thing. It would be interesting and useful to some degree, I think, to have a basic valuation schema; it may help owners decide weather or not to do a particular modification, or to pay a little extra (and wait) to have original material used in a particular application so I don't think Chris' exercise is one that should necessarily be abandoned but I think it would be very useful as a guide rather than a rule. And, as someone mentioned years ago when I first started out with this group, "as long as you keep all the parts and it could be re-converted then it IS original", of course how many of us got their e9's with absolutely zero changes to them to begin with? I think every opinion on this post has merit and I might venture to say that the e9 is the "most driven collector car"- Maybe that should be our motto :)
 

mario1017

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+1 this is an awesome group of people!

I respect the guys with modified cars, they have good taste 99% of the time. They are reversible mods also.

How I would love to have upgraded A/C, 5 speed, 3.5 etc for the practical use of the car!
Their are few original cars because of the nature of the build. I would agree to keep those original cars, original.

Being in the car business my whole life, it is as simple as this,

"a car is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it!"

If it is not for sale, it is priceless to it's owner.
 

rsporsche

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to me excellent original is probably unachievable in this model. its one thing to have matching numbers original ... its quite another to have original paint and interior ... that looks concours good.

with the specter of rust in these cars - inside and out, and the leaking potential of the windows / windshields and rubber gaskets, compounded by the large greenhouse ... the wood on our cars takes a real beating as does the leather interior.

so who thinks they really have an original car - never been painted, wrecked, rusted, with original interior - seats and wood ... in great shape?
 
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