Want to add AC to a non AC 71 CSi-is it possible?

[maxg765]

Hello All [ or should I say Bert ],

I would like to know what it is required to add AC to a Euro 1971 CSi that had not been factory equipped with AC at birth?

First is it possible as I know AC was not an option in 71 on the CSi's?

What parts would I need and where can I source the required parts?

What modifications would be required to the current car if it is a stock 71 Euro CSi?

The shop that I will be using told me to ask for what brackets and compressor would I need and if they are available and for how much etc...the rest they can handle.

Anyone out there selling a complete AC system for a 71 CSi.

I have no aversion to going non OEM towards a more modernized and lighter system but since the car is a non factory AC car I believe I need to start with the basics of turning it into one first. Not sure what year the CSi's had AC as an option but I know it was offered on later model years.


Thanks in advance for any help,

Max

 

[x_atlas0]

The hard parts will be the interior bits, as they are unique to the E9. Your best bet there is to find someone breaking an AC-equipped coupe and hope for the best. You will need to replace virtually the entire center console, as the sides, front, and internals are different.

In terms of the outside, any M30 AC bracket will do if you use the same style of compressor the bracket was made for. As an example, the later M30s used a rotary compressor, which is more efficient and cheaper than the original York compressor.

There have been a variety of threads about adding AC and AC upgrades. I suggest you hunt around a bit to answer many of your questions.

 

[Bwana]

I'm right in the middle of doing exactly this

http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7739

Not for the faint of heart. The really critical parts are the mounting brackets for the compressor, condenser, and evaporator. Seems like these seemingly minor parts are missed when somebody parts out a car. But they are very difficult to fabricate if you don't have a go-by to compare them to. I'm in the process of making tabs for the side panels to mount to, nothing in my collection of parts match up.

I have a spare evaporator and fans I can probably part with as well as some other stuff but it might be a couple of weeks (at least) before I'm ready to give them up. Once I get it all installed I'll post the left over parts in the PARTS section of the forum.

Do you have any of the parts right now?

 

[alvchua]

http://iceac.com/

above site apparently has complete kits for both BMW 2002 and 3.0 CS which I am very interested in - would appreciate any feedback if anyone has had previous experience with these kits.

 

[x_atlas0]

http://iceac.com/

above site apparently has complete kits for both BMW 2002 and 3.0 CS which I am very interested in - would appreciate any feedback if anyone has had previous experience with these kits.

Only the 2002, last I talked with them.

 

[thehackmechanic]

a/c retrofit

I've done it, and have written extensively about it, both here, on 2002faq, and in Roundel articles many years ago.

--As the previous poster said, if you can find an air-conditioned E9 being parted out, buy the whole car, or at least every a/c part.

--You might think that you're amenable to an aftermarket under-dash installation, but when you look at what's available and how these units look, you'll probably change your mind. The E9 has such an elegant, period-rooted interior that something that's out-of-time will look very out-of-place. That's not a value judgment -- if you look at it and think you can live with it, then go for it -- but I went down this road 15 years ago and turned around and went the other way.

--The compressor is trivial, as the previous poster said -- buy a new rotary-style compressor and the proper adapter bracket. Widely available.

--For the condenser, you can either locate an original condenser, or put in the largest aftermarket condenser that will fit in the nose.

--For the evaporator assembly, the coupe shares this part with the Bavaria and several other cars; check realoem.com for compatibility.

--The part that you really need for the evaporator assembly is the plastic box, open at the bottom and the sides, that sits on top of the evaporator assembly and interfaces it to the rest of the ductwork. I believe this is unique to the E9 and very hard to find. Again, look at realoem.

--The air-conditioned console and center panel are unique to the air-conditioned E9, hard to find, and expensive. On mine, I installed the a/c and got it working and lived without a console around it for five years. Then I took the existing non-a/c console and routed out the side panels to make it fit around the evaporator console, and lived without a center panel for years. Then I fab'd a center panel and it looked like crap. I finally found a junky center console and had the side pieces re-upholstered.

--You need to punch holes in your firewall for the hoses. Those two-sided punches that you thread together with a bolt work great.

--Fabrication of the myriad of little metal brackets can be time-consuming but isn't rocket science.

--Similarly with the wiring.

--If you're doing it yourself, the thing to do is install the major components, then take the car to a custom hose shop and have them measure, cut, and install all new hoses.

--You have to make the decision of using R12 versus R134a. Both have their merits. If you live somewhere HOT, it's probably worth going with Freon. In my case, I worked with Bob Poggi at Ice 15 years ago to have him fab a three-row evaporator core that fit in the same space as the original two-row core, and stuffed the biggest condenser that would fit into the nose, and used R134a. It works well enough, but I'm in Boston and it doesn't get that snot hot here. I spoke with Carl Nelson about this years ago, and he said that, for what his customers pay him, they want a freezing car, and to get that, he uses original condensers and evaporators and Freon, and has happy customers.

It was a long, time-consuming project, but ultimately one of the best things I ever did for my E9 because it increases my driving enjoyment of the car. After all, if you shy away from driving your baby in hot weather because your Honda has a/c, you're cutting yourself off from a lot of the prime driving season.

Good luck.

--Rob

 

[rb1971]

<i>The air-conditioned console and center panel are unique to the air-conditioned E9, hard to find, and expensive. On mine, I installed the a/c and got it working and lived without a console around it for five years. Then I took the existing non-a/c console and routed out the side panels to make it fit around the evaporator console, and lived without a center panel for years. Then I fab'd a center panel and it looked like crap. I finally found a junky center console and had the side pieces re-upholstered.</i>

Since I'm doing an AC install on a non-AC car as part of my resto right now, I thought I'd second this but add my experience.

The E9 AC console is certainly unique to the car and possibly the toughest part to find unless you can find a junk car or one being parted out. I had a very rough one and was able to wrinklecoat and rehabilitate it, but if you're not doing the whole car (or you are trying to be perfectly period-correct), that probably won't work or will look weird.

The side pieces around the center are a lot easier to make, especially if you have a template. I took pieces off of a friend's car, measured a piece of molding board, cut holes for the vents and had them covered by my upholstery shop. Not trivial if you are doing it yourself, but not rocket science.

 

[rsporsche]

so how different is the e3 center a/c panel? i know it looks similar, but has a different part number. what is the chance of using that part, it has to be more readily available.

 

[HB Chris]

The e3 center panel has one extra vent slot which moves the radio down behind the shift platform making radio almost unusable. These are the ones you see most often on eBay.

 

[Bwana]

http://iceac.com/

above site apparently has complete kits for both BMW 2002 and 3.0 CS which I am very interested in - would appreciate any feedback if anyone has had previous experience with these kits.

Yes, these are the folks I bought my compressor, bracket, and condenser from just last year.

 

[oldcoupe]

AC in CSi

Because I had an E3 parts car, and just assumed E9 AC parts would be too hard to find, I kept the non-AC E9 console and used E3 parts.

I cut the E3 front panel down to fit onto the tunnel and managed to fit the period-correct Blaupunkt radio in, but it was very crowded. I also used the E3's plastic box which sits on top of the AC unit, cutting and blanking off the side holes - face vents from an E3 would be nice, but there's no room. You can cut holes in the console sides for the air intake, and use the E3 plastic covers. It took a lot of time but imho looks ok.

From memory, the blue book with all the updates has a couple of useful pages, mostly on the electrical wiring. The E3 unit's wires plugged directly into the E9's wiring.

 

[sfdon]

I walked into double o2 salvage 4 years ago and walked out with all the parts I needed in about an hour. I'm very spoiled living 10 minutes away from the biggest vintage BMW recycler.
All those parts are unique and they had them all in stock, used.
Last week I went in and they had 2 "prismas" sitting on a shelf and I got both.
sfdon

 

[Dave L]

Coupe air install

It's kinda funny how things cycle around, sometimes in reverse. I remember a couple of years ago there was a lot of discussion about deleting the air conditioning from members coupes. Everyone was trying to find non-ac center consoles. Now it's the opposite. I can say I was in the former group. Yes, I actually took the ac system out of my car (70' 2800cs). I can't say I have ever missed it, but that it probably relative to the climate a person lives. I do have a box with all the parts that I saved. I know I have all the interior parts...somewhere. I will search for them this weekend. If I am successful maybe I'll offer them up, you guys have got me thinking they are desirable enough to contribute to my "Wheel purchase fund".

Dave L

 

[E911]

a/c...

hard to justify the weight and complexity of the system versus the performance... same with the sunroof (plus it's small and contributes to rust). Manual windows are nice too, they actually move in your time zone- to each their own.

 

[thehackmechanic]

You guys in Cali don't know how good you have it (actually I'm sure you do). The odds of finding anything like this in a junkyard in the Northeast are similar to coming home to find Brooklyn Decker in your living room. Even the idea that an E3 is a cheaper source of similar parts is a non-starter in this part of the country: They're gone.

 

[maxg765]

Thanks to all

Hello All,

Thanks to all of you who have replied/posted your suggestions, experiences and remarks. I've been doing lost of reading.

I will surely go the AC route as I don't have much of a choice. Currently live in Phoenix AZ and will be moving to North Miami Florida in July. AC is not a luxury but a requirement in these two places if I want to enjoy the car...

Some of you have PM's and some will be getting them soon...

If I dive into my project I will be turning to many of you for aide. Wish I could apply for a "bail out" to complete everything but thats probably not likely

Max

 

[Dave L]

re: salvage yard parts

"Hack" said we have it lucky in SoCal...we do, but I dont think it's really in relation to being able to find parts in salvage yards. Things do show up in the yards, sometimes I am amazed. The big time factor is that there are so many cars (of all kinds and years) still driving out here and there is an enthusiast group for all of them and part businesses to cater to them. I have to say though that I have gotten more needed parts from fellow "coupesters" than from anywhere else. A board like this equalizes it a bit, luckily we just dont have to deal with the shipping.

 

[MMercury]

Another consideration?

Something I have not seen addressed regarding the addition or removal of ac, is changing the front springs to accommodate any front axle weight changes. This may be a non-issue given that original factory springs may be showing their age by now. In any event, the factory "evidently" had a different spring rate for AC-equipped cars versus non-AC versions. Recommended front spring rates also appear to differ between early and later E9's, also presumably due to weight differences.

FWIW, I don't believe the shop manual mentions the spring rate differences between AC and non-AC equipped E9s, but the common part listings do:

PNs: "rot" 31331112143 (early E9) [Front coil spring (2800CS Automatic (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973; 2800CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973; 3.0CS Automatic (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973; 3.0CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973)]

31331113321 (late E9) [Front coil spring (3.0CS Automatic (M30) Coupe: From 10/1973, 3.0CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 10/1973 )]

PNs: "weiss" 31331112799 [2800CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973 3.0CS Automatic (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973 3.0CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973 For vehicles with Air conditioning = Yes)]

From memory, there were three spring rates with red being the softest, white in the middle, and green as the firmest. A cursory search on realoem does not seem to mention the green rated springs although there is a listing for "gelb" or yellow springs that were fitted to CSL models. http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=7071&mospid=47809&btnr=31_0450&hg=31&fg=10 A previous thread from this forum mentions other colors: (red, yellow and blue) http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3159

 

[maxg765]

Something I have not seen addressed regarding the addition or removal of ac, is changing the front springs to accommodate any front axle weight changes. This may be a non-issue given that original factory springs may be showing their age by now. In any event, the factory "evidently" had a different spring rate for AC-equipped cars versus non-AC versions. Recommended front spring rates also appear to differ between early and later E9's, also presumably due to weight differences.

FWIW, I don't believe the shop manual mentions the spring rate differences between AC and non-AC equipped E9s, but the common part listings do:

PNs: "rot" 31331112143 (early E9) [Front coil spring (2800CS Automatic (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973; 2800CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973; 3.0CS Automatic (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973; 3.0CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973)]

31331113321 (late E9) [Front coil spring (3.0CS Automatic (M30) Coupe: From 10/1973, 3.0CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 10/1973 )]

PNs: "weiss" 31331112799 [2800CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973 3.0CS Automatic (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973 3.0CS Manual (M30) Coupe: From 12/1968 Up To 10/1973 For vehicles with Air conditioning = Yes)]

From memory, there were three spring rates with red being the softest, white in the middle, and green as the firmest. A cursory search on realoem does not seem to mention the green rated springs although there is a listing for "gelb" or yellow springs that were fitted to CSL models. http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=7071&mospid=47809&btnr=31_0450&hg=31&fg=10 A previous thread from this forum mentions other colors: (red, yellow and blue) http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3159

Interesting and very good point. The springs will certainly need to be addressed. I completely forgot about that. It will be a much larger project than in had planned I'd want to have it done right-have no choice.

Max

 

[MMercury]

Interesting and very good point. The springs will certainly need to be addressed. I completely forgot about that.

With any luck, your springs may not have to be addressed. :smile:

The apparent lack of any discussion about spring changes when fitting or removing air conditioning may be explainable - because the few owners making this modification (especially when adding weight) find spring changes unnecessary. By adding weight under the hood or near the firewall, the front end should sit lower. Most folks tend to prefer this look.

It is the opposite situation, where the front end sits higher after a modification, where most folks might have an issue. As one might expect, this happens more often when swapping out heavy auto transmissions, replacing original brass radiators with lighter aluminum versions, removing big post '73 North American bumpers or relocating the battery to the trunk. So, each situation might be dealt with differently.

Bear in mind also that ride height can be affected by factors other than the springs themselves, including spring pads (no 2), spacers (no 15) and even different combinations of struts, tires and wheels. Another consideration is balancing the front and rear ride height, which conceivably might even mean raising the rear suspension.

hth.