Stuck Choke?

WALTER

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Hi All,

I just returned from a seven month deployment and I am having a problem getting my '74 CS running properly:

1. Initially, the car would not start even when I tried to set the choke by depressing the accelerator; it turned over, but would not start.

2. My dad and I sprayed starter fluid through the air intake and the car started, but the engine races at about 4000 RPM. Each time we start the engine, it races to 4000 RPM; tapping the accelerator does not kick the RPMs down.

Could this be a problem with the choke? Has anyone had this same experience and know what to do?

Much appreciated,

Walter
 

JhwShark

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Walter,
Thanks for your service!

I'm sure others will add better value...
Which carbs do you have? type of choke?
Is the accel cable stretched?
Have you inspected the throat and what does the carb flap do when you depress the acel?

Jon
 

WALTER

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Jon,

Thanks for the response. I have Zenith Carbs and I'm embarrassed to admit that I am not sure what kind of choke it is though I think it is automatic. I don't believe the accel cable is stretched; it appears to be functioning as it should. When I hold the pedal down the lower carb butterflies open.

thanks,

Walt
 

JhwShark

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I hope others chime in; the folks with original Z's will be best to help

I haven't had Z's except in my 2002 which I replaced with a Weber.
I'm sure it's not manual, is it a water or electronic choke?
If elect. yo will see a wire to the choke body, check the connection for good contacts/corrosion. if water see if the choke rotated in its retainer?

Ran fine before deployment? parked in or outside? any work done?

Jon
 

Sven

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Walter,

Did you check that there is power to the shut-off valves. It is a round cylinder screwed into the base of each carb (pointing towards direction of the battery). It has a single wire to it. If it does not show 12v when the car is starting or running, then that could be your problem (ie. no fuel getting to the jets).

Also, the chokes should only be open around 1/8" when cold. If I remember correctly, you need to push the pedal all the way to the floor to reset them so it rests on the first choke step. If they are open you could try holding them almost closed to see if that helps.

good luck,
 

jmackro

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I don't believe the accel cable is stretched; it appears to be functioning as it should.

Well, that's good news because e9's don't use an accelerator cable. They have linkage with rods & bellcranks.

When I hold the pedal down the lower carb butterflies open.

Again, good news. The real question however, is whether the lower butterflies close when you don't press on the pedal. I.e., is the linkage hanging up somehow, holding your butterflies open and causing the fast idle?
 

61porsche

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Stuck Choke -Zeniths

Walter,

Welcome back!

Chokes make the engine run up to maybe 1.8k if in sync. So no, that wouldn't make it spin at 4k.

Go easy with the starting fluid. It can pool up in the bottom of the manifolds and do all sorts of things not necessarily good. Use a little gas directly down the carbs if you suspect that the pump is not producing.

Make sure you have fuel at the pump and to the carbs by checking the fuel lines, filter, tank, tank screen, etc.

If it has gas, something's hanging up.

Linkage-can stick. Easy way to check- push down on the adjustable links on each carb to close the throttles. The rods snap on so you can also snap them ( small open end wrench between and lever it off) off to see if something is really hanging up and keeping things open.

Yes, and by all means check the idle solenoids for power and connection. The power comes from the rear carb choke, to the thermo valve, then the solenoid and continues the same for the front carb. It easy to knock something loose so check it.

An easy way to check for fuel at the carbs is to operate the accelerater pump lever and look for the squirt of fuel from small brass tube in the primary throat with the choke flap.

If you have fuel in the carbs and it's still reving up, check the secondary linkage for hanging up somehow. The don't open normally until under load- meaning you have to open the throttle up because they're vacumn operated. They can stick open though, but the linkage would be way out of any normal position.

Look down the throat of the larger opening, if it's open you should be able to see it is.

Hope this helps, but if not just ask.
 

jmackro

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Hi All,

I just returned from a seven month deployment and I am having a problem getting my '74 CS running properly:

1. Initially, the car would not start even when I tried to set the choke by depressing the accelerator; it turned over, but would not start.

2. My dad and I sprayed starter fluid through the air intake and the car started, but the engine races at about 4000 RPM. Each time we start the engine, it races to 4000 RPM; tapping the accelerator does not kick the RPMs down.

Could this be a problem with the choke? Has anyone had this same experience and know what to do?

Going back to your original question: When a car sits for several months, the check valves in the accelerator pump system can gum up. When the pumps aren't squirting fuel, it becomes very difficult to start the engine. Spraying ether (or dribbling a little gas down the carbs) will substitute for the accelerating pumps, at least while starting. But, the car will still behave poorly on the road, as the mixture will be too lean when you try to accelerate. So, that could be problem #1.

The 4,000 rpm "idle" sounds like a second symptom. It is odd for two different things to go wrong simultaneously - I would rather suggest one problem that could cause both symptoms - but I'm having trouble coming up with it. As 61porsche writes, if the choke were stuck open, it would raise the idle speed, but not to 4,000.

61porsche also offers good advice when he says to go easy with the ether. That stuff is OK on a below zero day, when gasoline won't vaporize easily. But on cars with downdraft carburetors, just dribbling gas down the barrels is a safer procedure.
 
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WALTER

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Gents,

Again thanks for the replies. Since I last posted I tried starting it by holding the top butterflies open, pressing the accelerator pedal once to reset the choke, spraying carb cleaner in the opening and then starting. The engine continued to rev, but not as high (it now races to 3000 - 3200 RPM). I attempted the same procedure again with the same results (I think Einstein said something about trying the same thing and expecting different results; but he didn't drive an e9, so what does he know).

Sven, Jmackro, 61Porsche, I have checked all that you have suggested and everything seems normal. When I sprayed the starting fluid into the intake, it was just two or three short blasts and it fired right up. I should have noted earlier that prior to my deployment the choke never seemed to work properly; when starting the engine from cold, the choke would not set and I would have to depress the accelerator to keep the RPMs up so that the engine would not shut off. Could this be a related problem?

thanks,

Walt
 

jmackro

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Jmackro said:
Spraying ether (or dribbling a little gas down the carbs) will substitute for the accelerating pumps, at least while starting. But, the car will still behave poorly on the road, as the mixture will be too lean when you try to accelerate.

Sven, Jmackro, 61Porsche, I have checked all that you have suggested and everything seems normal.

OK, so tell us how the car behaves on the road. Before blaming the chokes, I'd still like to eliminate the accelerating pumps. Can you see fuel spraying when you look down the barrels and operate the throttle linkage?

WALTER said:
spraying carb cleaner in the opening and then starting

Wow, what are you going to spray down there next? Nitroglycerin perhaps?
 
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61porsche

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Stuck choke- Zeniths

Walter,

Chokes won't cause an idle near 3k.

By adding starting fluid to start, you're changing the fuel mixture enough to start the engine. Which means there's too much air ( bad air; from some other abnormal source).

Too much air-

1) Linkage out of adjustment holding something open that should be closed or near closed.

a) Accelerator pedal where it should be and returns back when depressed?
b) Main linkage to left motor mount have a spring on it?
c) Is the linkage bent?
d) Is the adjustment screw on the throttle rod ( under the fuel t- fitting) touching? There must be a gap as this is what you use to increase the idle speed and set the timing.
e) Links from the rod- are they down all the way? Push them down with your hand or thumb. All these parts are old and sometimes they act up even when you clean them and grease them up.

2) Carbs- Since the engine runs at 3k: Does it run normal or stumbles and shakes? Since you say it runs, lets assume it's something effecting both carbs.

a) Gas-Let's assume it's getting fuel and the bowls are full. Weak mixture. Too much air. Adding starting fluid and starts.

At 3k, the carbs are well into the middle of the primaries and the idle circuit is working.

The throttles are staying open for some reason other than linkage. Jammed, loose on the shaft and jammed. At idle position, the plates are mainly closed and the primary circuit isn't used. Gently push the plates and see if they close.

The opposite can occur to air- not enough fuel; if the idle circuit is plugged or the solenoids aren't working or powered then too much air is in the mix and starting won't occur easily. Hence the need for the starting fluid. Check for power at each solonoid. A trick is to close the small air bleed hole next to the idle air jet on the top of the carb. Use a piece of metal tape preferably than your finger. Then try to start. If it does you know somethings wrong with that circuit.

Last but not least are the secondaries which can jam or hang up. But only when they've been opened and won't close ( partially). If this is the case, then air is being drawn when it shouldn't. Since there are two barrels and the secondaries can effect idle, speed, mixture this can be the cause of a high idle, sync., roughness, etc. An easy way to check if you don't have an air meter is to choke down the opening and see if it changes. ( Take away the extra air.) They can hang up on linkage, in the bore, or a plate is partially loose. Gently, push down on the plates and see it they close.

These cars are old ( But very much loved and admired by many) and wear occurrs where the factory never dreamed of and it's not all in the manuals. Many people have worked on these cars some with great care and some with less so it pays to check the not so obvious. Persistance in solving the problem will get you there. This is a great forum for people of all experiences to share knowledge.

Here's my cell- 713 885-2016. I'm happy to help you in any way I know how including standing next to my engine and walking you through it on the phone.

FYI- My car ( 72 CS) came from S. Maryland and I used to live in Falls Church, Va, so don't be a stranger if you have a question or get stumped.

61porsche
 

WALTER

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Jay,

When car is on, it runs very strong, without stumbling; in fact, smoother than I remember before leaving for deployment.

I'd add Nitroglycerin to the engine if it would help; right now I'm thinking a stick of C4 might do the trick.

61Porsche,

I will take you up on your offer, is there a good time to call? I have to admit, I am limited on my technical knowledge and tools, but I listen and follow directions pretty well. Thanks

Walt
 

61porsche

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Stuck Ckoke?

Walt,

Call anytime; just not too early or late. CST.:-D

Try this- there is a linkage for the secondaries. If you reach down past the vacumn canister, follow the linkage ( rod) and you will find at the base of the carb a small lever. ( It's underneath) It's in tension with a preload to help open/ close when the engine load calls for the secondary to open ( passing, etc.). Push it and see if the throttle valve(s) close. I use it to check balance and see that the secondaries can open and aren't stuck closed. You're looking to see if they will close. Block open the throttle rod and try it again. At WOT there is another linkage on both carbs that lets the secondaries open. They can hang up there as well.

If you're getting real frustrated, spray lubricant on everything you think is attached to the carb linkage and work the throttles. You can always clean it off. If you look close on the carb linkage there are two rollers whereby they can hang up.

If you didn't know- the registry link has the repair manual ( blue book) for the car. Zeniths were used on Mercedes for a while and there is information out there from them as well. It used to be that there were links from this site , but just recently that information page went away.:confused:

Get the electrical circuit working on the choke- solenoids working as we talked about.

61Porsche
 
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