Bright Sparks

OZCSi

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Hi,

as a hands on mechanic for 22 years, that left the day to day servicing of cars and machinery, bulldozers etc, you get your own little band of products that you label as "bulletproof". It may be a certain loctite product, a brand of hacksaw blade or simply just the feel and precision you get when you really lay out a job on a bench and reach for the stahl willie ratchet and just know that you are going to "nail" the job.

I did this on the weekend with my beloved csi.

I carefully pulled the air cleaner housing and hoses, removed the washer bottle and plug leads which had been replaced 12 months ago and removed the spark plugs, noting the beautiful and even colour of the plugs and remarking to myself how good it feels to spend this time using quality parts and see that it is all worth it.

The plugs I pulled were the wr7dc +1 Bosch made in germany for those who are interested.( and forgetting any discussion at this point about resistor plugs)


I reached into my latest stash of Walloth and Nesch parts and filters and pulled out 6 new plugs.

Carefully applying some anti seize in a very very small amount to the threads in the barest of quantities, I laid them out like a surgeon for the refit, carefully handling them and just simply getting this job done to a high standard.

Confidence in what you can do, and what the part is, its a wonderful thing.


I refitted all the parts and checked each clip and hose clamp on the way and didnt even bother to run it with hood up, I just closed it and rolled the car out for that clean and crisp run when the world is a beautiful place and your car which is running great anyway, just feels that bit better. ( like having a really clean windscreen)


Within minutes, I was aware of a problem. This car was idling terribly, as if a vacuum line was shot, or the MAP was having a brain explosion.

I had seen all this before, having to become an expert on djet from so far away in Australia and availing myself with these skills from every forum known to man that deals in such things.

But this cant be, this is my car and the job was so minor.

The car was now wavering and running seemingly on 3 or 5 cylinders.

It limped home and with bonnet up, I looked hard at the facts and using a small word called experience, I just pulled the plugs and examined.

My, oh my.

Within 30 mins of driving a pattern was present. at least two were not or barely firing at all and were overfuelled. The remainder were ok and as per previous plugs.

At this point, I noticed something even smaller. Written in small writing was the words, Made in India on the plugs.

I put them on the bench now, almost shaking that I had put something so sub standard in the car.

I checked the other new ones, and they are the same , and all branded made in india.

Well, I actually needed to use this car as I had left some other keys for vehicles at my office, so I carefully replaced the old plugs after extracting them from the bin and fitted them into the car.

Does how this ends, need any explanation? Does it come as any surprise ?

Yes.............the car immediately went back to running beautifully, and sang, pulling strongly and just idled right on the money with no waver or shudder.

Now, I am not going to fill out warranty forms and deal with a service agent who wants to debate with me how a 40 year old car can have some foibles or issues that can come up intermittently and pretend that there is a chance that my car is sub standard.

I am going to now simply take Bosch off my list of safe and secure products.

I have heard the rumours about quality issues and how good NGK are etc, and always stood up for the german reliability of Bosch.

Until now.....I feel like I have lost a friend.

But if parts are going to be made in strained locations like India or China, the Quality control just has to be 110%, and to then keep the price the same anyway as a german one, is just insulting.

So, the devil is in the details, but that small one word change from Germany to India, certainly had huge repercussions for me.

Anyone else had similar issues? I mean, I am just an old broken down mechanic, not a bright spark executive heavyweight at Bosch, and they would be right, wouldnt they??

Andrew
 
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Stevehose

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I have heard similar QC issues with Bosch India plugs, I buy only German made ones.
 

Peter Coomaraswamy

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Since spark plugs are essentially made by machine, i.e. no human involvement, it strikes me as strange that there is much money to be saved by having a machine in India make them rather than in Germany. Do we have to pay the machines an hourly rate? or is the electricity that much cheaper? How about the shipping costs? Sometimes I think we could just leave well enough alone. I have had the same problems with brake rotors on numerous occasions, everything fits just right then you notice that the casting is scraping the inner dust shield. There have always been "snake-oil" dealers out there it just seems like there are allot more of them nowadays.
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deQuincey

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some comments:

first- please do not use anti-seize compound while inserting the plugs, it is specifically enforced in the blue manuals NOT to use anything there.

my tip, before installing new plugs, i clean the thread (in the head) with a tool for cleaning the gun tubes (you know that long thing with a lot of small flocks at the end), i dip it in gasoline (only a bit) and introduce it in the hole while turning in both directions, i have discover that this is the way of being able to then introduce the new plugs smoothly by hand with a special tool from BERU, basically a rubber hose that holds the sparkplug and allows you a better angle to install

second- the walloth&n products quality is being discussed in our local forums, we discover that they produce a lot of parts in india, not only plugs, but rubbers, mechanical parts and so on, we have discover many failures some of them representing costly re-repairs, genarally speaking we ended up with the feeling that it is not worth buying things in w&n provided the excellent service that local bmw dealers are providing us together with the fact, that local pickup in your dealer is not burdened with shipping costs from germany as w&n does

third- i run bosch spark plugs too, the same as yours, and some people say that the quality of that products isn´t good too, because bosch produces their plugs in brazil...diffcult task to know whether the german quality will be back again while almost every part is being produced or even copied (fake parts i mean) in remote locations without proper or even any quality control

remark: look at these beautiful machines: remarkable, desired, well known as the "rolls royce" of motorbikes, the "royal enfield":

IMG01033-20130112-1314_zps170c79e7.jpg


just arrived from india, they are building these motorbikes in chennai, south-east coast, they look splendid, but just a 10 meters away look, when you come close, the production quality is so bad, that you will just jump back and go away (loose cables not neatly protected, corrosion bubbles under cromed parts, badly finished rubber edges, cheap looking plastic chromed indicators,...and so on, not to speak about the long list of mechanical problems that western buyers report only one month after the purchase,...
 
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30csl

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This is a very enlightening thread - i am amazed the quality is that different given the simplicity of a spark plug and like someone said - the lack of human involvement.

Any fear that the parts were dropped causing the insulation to crack?

Thanks for this warning. MADE IN GERMANY for me from now on!
 

OZCSi

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I am in agreeance with you dequincy about quality and the details that are missing in products from so many as i described "strained" parts of the world.

Anti Seize........to each his own. I went to some trouble to outline how little I use in my post above. I really only use it to be a lube for any threads that have had a tough time in 40 years and it is also a big difference in an aluminium head if you put them into the head hot or cold.

But, I cannot stand the idea of a large amount being used liberally, and take your point well.

I also have a set of blue books......and they are a bible, but products have moved on as well and they are now relying on loctite to help solve the overlooked spray bar bolt problem that got past the finest minds of 1972.

The point is, I have seen so many parts bathed and dipped in anti seize that fail, and I use it very sparingly, almost to a point of non existent, and appreciate your position.

Very interested in how the quality problems can be addressed by W and N, they have been such a good company for me personally to deal with.

Best Wishes
 
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Bwana

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NGK's are your friend! I use them in everything I own, Datsun Roadster, Ducati Dharma, Guzzi Police bike, the Coupe. I've never had a failure in any machine is more that 30 years.
 

deQuincey

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The point is, I have seen so many parts bathed and dipped in anti seize that fail, and I use it very sparingly, almost to a point of non existent, and appreciate your position.

Very interested in how the quality problems can be addressed by W and N, they have been such a good company for me personally to deal with.

Best Wishes

great !

your own experience makes you a master ! just continue as you know how to do

w&n were good for me in the past, but now i relay on my dealer, they even make me some discount in the final invoice, and i relay on new sources found in numerous trips to germany and england...:)
 

MMercury

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some comments:

first- please do not use anti-seize compound while inserting the plugs, it is specifically enforced in the blue manuals NOT to use anything there.

my tip, before installing new plugs, i clean the thread (in the head) with a tool for cleaning the gun tubes (you know that long thing with a lot of small flocks at the end), i dip it in gasoline (only a bit) and introduce it in the hole while turning in both directions, i have discover that this is the way of being able to then introduce the new plugs smoothly by hand with a special tool from BERU, basically a rubber hose that holds the sparkplug and allows you a better angle to install

DQ, as always, your advice is sound. Cleaning/chasing threads is always a wise practice. So is using a torque wrench - especially on aluminum threads. That being said, the use (or non-use) of anti-seize remains unsettled and will likely remain so.

In most instances, plug manufacturers recommend avoiding the use of anti-seize. See collection of manufacturer quotes: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1376508#post1376508

Suffice it to say, spark plugs having a tendency toward developing surface rust might be good candidates for anti-seize. This includes spark plugs with a black finish (e.g., older style Autolite and AC Delco). Silver (nickel or zinc) plated plugs, e.g., Bosch, NGK and Nippon Denso are not typical rust'ers. !! >(ever see plugs coming apart at the threads?)> http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisieze.pdf

BMW's owner's manual adds to the confusion. It specifically recommends "coat[ing] the threads of the spark plugs before insertion with a bit of graphite grease." (See below.) It is a guess that when the manual was written the authors erred on the side of caution respecting both the average owner-mechanics' aptitude and knowledge, and the wide range of available replacement spark plugs - including those without nickel or zinc plating.



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OZCSi

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30csl

Always a chance, but a spark plug in its little cardboard box along with other parts filters etc, is pretty well protected and they werent damaged at all to my eye.

Interesting to me anyway, isthat whilst my car runs very well, I rarely use it for long runs, more short hops of 20 mins or so. If I had to pick any plug to ever have the slightest of difference, number 3 is sometimes just fractionally blacker( carbon'ed) and I am leaning to the idea that the cold start injector may be at times contributing to this ,given to its proximity, and it is ever so slightly.

I have taken the plunge and bought some BP 6ES NGK and will fit tonight.

Japanese spark plugs........I hope I dont get expelled from the forum.
 

Stan

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papal dispensation

30csl

Always a chance, but a spark plug in its little cardboard box along with other parts filters etc, is pretty well protected and they werent damaged at all to my eye.

Interesting to me anyway, isthat whilst my car runs very well, I rarely use it for long runs, more short hops of 20 mins or so. If I had to pick any plug to ever have the slightest of difference, number 3 is sometimes just fractionally blacker( carbon'ed) and I am leaning to the idea that the cold start injector may be at times contributing to this ,given to its proximity, and it is ever so slightly.

I have taken the plunge and bought some BP 6ES NGK and will fit tonight.

Japanese spark plugs........I hope I dont get expelled from the forum.

We will let it slide this time provided you click on the CS registry word on the black bar above and register your 2 coupes plus any other parts cars you may have....
 

Stan

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Since spark plugs are essentially made by machine, i.e. no human involvement, it strikes me as strange that there is much money to be saved by having a machine in India make them rather than in Germany. Do we have to pay the machines an hourly rate? or is the electricity that much cheaper? How about the shipping costs? Sometimes I think we could just leave well enough alone. I have had the same problems with brake rotors on numerous occasions, everything fits just right then you notice that the casting is scraping the inner dust shield. There have always been "snake-oil" dealers out there it just seems like there are allot more of them nowadays.
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I wonder if the Chinese and Indians are using a cheap metal within the spark plug?
 

OZCSi

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Registered,

I have only the one e9, a 2002, and a few other coupes, e36 and now an e46.........so its running in my veins.

My csi is registered as 2262463 and is just up the road from you guys........in sunny downtown Australia where ut was a fantastic 41 degrees C ( 106 F) here at my house yesterday, so the air con in the garage was on!!

Have a great day and I am waiting for a response from W and N, so I will see what comes of it.

Best Wishes
 

sfdon

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Bosch plugs for older cars are now made in brazil, India and Russia. Only a few shops in my area will still use them - they are absolute trash.
 

OZCSi

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Update

Got a response from W an N, and they were very appreciative of the feedback I gave them and the fact that they were concerned.

They are going to take the matter up with Bosch and source an alternative plug.

Given all things being equal and being totally realistic about my position down under in Australia, I think this is the best I could hope for.

It is not practical or expected to get something more done, and when the costs of freight etc are weighed up the old school idea of a new set etc are just not applicable.

I will continue to buy from W and N, and just accept this as a small blot on the copybook.

Andrew
 

OZCSi

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NGK's are in

I had forgotten to mention, the NGKS are now in, and no doubt about it, they are a quality product and the car has its customary roar back.

I bow down to those who push the NGK barrow.

You guys have been right all along
 
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