Suspension suspense

[Arde]

OK, I am doing it. Stay tuned for a video of spilling my espresso with stock vs. sway bars...


BTW, after so many years of shrugging to people that ask me why I like a strong yet tiny espresso I found the answer the hard way. When I spill it inside the car it makes less of a mess than spilling a cup of regular coffee.

Quote:

Arde,

I installed the #52015 Front/Rear 28/22mm ST sway bars and didn't find them particularly difficult so not sure what you have been told. The routing of the e-brake cable past the rear bar while feeding the bar over the driveshaft was awkward and took a bit of trial and error (which side is up) but does fit - knowing this is possible should make it easier versus me wondering if it was going to work.

The second part of the question as to whether it's worth doing with stock springs versus the sporty spring/shock combo. I think there would be a benefit even if the springs are stock by reducing body roll but not to the degree that the full sport setup would give. I don't think there is a negative outcome and you could always try it (before deciding on going further with lowering springs and HD shocks) and if you don't like - it re-bush the stock sway bar set and sell the ST 52015.

Doug

 

[John S]

I wonder what the specs are for the Hardy & Beck package? That's what I have on my car. I can't remember the specs for the front and rear bars, but the Bilsteins are custom valved somewhere between HD & Sport and matched to their springs that lower by about an inch. I love it and you're welcome to try it out sometime. I head over to Marina Food in Cupertino every once in a while to pick up Chinese groceries,
John

 

[Bwana]

Having fitted Carl Nelsons sway bar kit yesterday I thought I would share my thoughts and comments with everyone.


<snip>


Be warned my experience working with an experienced race car engineer who has built at least two of these coupes for historic racing leads me to say these kits are not Plug and Play and would be impossible to do without having the car on a hoist.

Sorry for the rant but this took most of my day up yesterday for what seemed to be a simple job.

This ^^^^

I too bought the Calr Nelson full set up with struts, shock, and sway bars. The front SB installation is not for the faint of heart. The rear was pretty easy. The CN instructions are non-existant, you better know what you're doing. I didn't have a hoist either!

I also got the offset plates for the front struts.

The full combination is "tested" in that apparently Carl went to the trouble such that all the components compliment each other. I'd be real hesitant about only getting a front, rear SB, only shocks, etc. Sometime in the distant past I remember we set up a car with a stiffer/larger rear bar but with no modification to the front set up. The car would barely go around a corner, horrible. Installed a complimentery front bar and problem solved.

Check the rear bar width before installing it. CN had a batch that was apparently bent a little outboard of where it should have been bent. I had the same problem as inovermyhead had in that the ends of the bar were almost touching the axle boots. I called and asked for a replacement bar but the guy at CN said it was no big deal, it wouldn't affect performance, and he wouldn't replace the bar anyway. First and only dis-satified moment with these guys, otherwise they are excellent.

When replacing the rear shocks, be sure to carefully check the upper shock tower mounts. Mine were about to give way so I cut them out and welded in (actually 61porsche did the work) new plates.

The Man in action!

(I think those thighs may be NSFW :lol: )

Old

Fabricated plate

Job done

Here's a shot of what inovermyhead is talking about with the front bar clips

Not an easy installation!

I think I used a crowbar, vise grips, and a hammer and punch to finally make it all fit.

The handling improvement is stunning! The car went from a tuna boat ride (Think 1969 Plymouth Fury III) to a hot $hit BMW ride. The only issue I have now is the car slews badly when I have to swever around a road hazard. I thought I was either going to swap ends or flip once when I had to dodge a tire tread at 70 MPH on the freeway. It handled perfectly flat but felt rather numb for road feedback. Maybe the Michelen "Destiny" tires (almost met mine!). But otherwise an excellent, if not a little spendy, investment.

Found a shot of the offset plate, be sure to get them in in the correct orientation (I think they are marked rt, lt, and up down)

 

[decoupe]

Upon further reflection,

my installation included solving a problem with the existing stock sway bar mount so I assumed if your car had good condition mounts it would be fairly straight forward. Guess not. Yes, I do have access to a hoist which makes any work under the car easier.

The two photos show the welded existing problem and the plates I made up to deal with them. Having the plates I made for installing the 28mm bar pretty easy - install the rear bolt loose, clamp/pry down and tighten the front and then tighten the rear.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g120/decoupe/IMG00073-20110725-2208.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g120/decoupe/FrontSTmount.jpg

On whether or not to install the 28/22mm - I'm guessing here so don't take that as a recommendation. I tend to do a lot of seat of the pants RD by making incremental changes to the car. Also my car had the lowering springs and HD when I bought it but still had the stock sway bar set. Adding the 28/22 sway bars improved the handling but not in the same way that Bwana found going from stock.

I have the installation instructions in pdf (from ST) if anyone wants them. PM your email to me.

Doug

 

[Nicad]

Anyone just use Poly bushings with the Bilstein HD and CN Springs? (While riding on 16s?).

Since the Korman, ST, and CN bars are all the same size, does that mean that they are all made by ST? ANyone have as much trouble with the fit of the Korman?

Surprised there are no German bars, but as I recall Germans like to tune cars with shocks and springs and keep the corners independent.

 

[kasbatts]

I was thinking going around cones at a fixed speed at an empty parking lot.
The angle measurement is the crux, let's sort the options:

- A relative films the car form outside.
- Use a jar with coconut oil and see the marks on the inside of the jar.
- The iphone has an accelerometer, need to find the right app, using app search engine www.quixey.com and searching "measure acceleration on iphone" yields interesting results, like gcar for example...

Need to order the sway bars before I get into that. Why don't cars come with thicker sway bars?

One of the above is a shameless plug.

Was just reading through all this again....

Arde, Do you sell Coconut oil??


Seriously, I think you wont regret putting the Bars on the car, very much a move in the right direction, I agree exactly what Doug has expressed.



Quote


"The second part of the question as to whether it's worth doing with stock springs versus the sporty spring/shock combo. I think there would be a benefit even if the springs are stock by reducing body roll but not to the degree that the full sport setup would give. I don't think there is a negative outcome and you could always try it (before deciding on going further with lowering springs and HD shocks) and if you don't like - it re-bush the stock sway bar set and sell the ST 52015."

Doug

 

[Arde]

Wrong , no oil sales, my son is at Quixey!

Good, now I have moral support and folks to blame if the project ends up a flop.

Was just reading through all this again....

Arde, Do you sell Coconut oil??


Seriously, I think you wont regret putting the Bars on the car, very much a move in the right direction, I agree exactly what Doug has expressed.

 

[rsporsche]

OK, but from what I read installing them is a bit of an art, and not clear if it is recommended to install with stock springs vs. going for a tested combo.

Arde,

if you read what i wrote early in this thread - i highly recommended going with a tested setup. please don't confuse my side trip into looking for the ST swaybar information for suggesting otherwise. i have bilstein HD shocks - with unknown springs and sway bars. they might be from CN - i have no idea. so my approach is to either swap pieces out and do trial and error. i already own a ST front bar that i got from Mario, but i don't have the mounting hardware ... and Doug supplied me with it. and now i can buy the rear bar that matches the front - so i can experiment. i do have a set of CN negative camber plates which i will be installing soon.

best
scott

 

[Nicad]

Can anyone who has installed these larger bars comment on how the car responds in bumpy corners? BMW's of this vintage really were in a league of their own going through a bumpy corner at a brisk (not 9/10ths) pace.

 

[snj5]

After re-reading this thread and searching the archives and following the concept of all the pieces of a package working together, have ordered the Korman springs, f&r bars and a set of Bilsteins. Will be sitting on staggered 16" 7 & 8" CK wheels with Continental 205/55f and 225/50r.

It is interesting to apply things I learned on my old Mondial with this car. For instance, resisting the urge to over-tire the car, which many Mondial and 308 owners tend to do. I know I did initially. The little Ferrari taught me a great deal about balance -- the throttle steerability and balance of the Mondial was superb, and MUCH more fun on smaller (stock) sections with smaller sidewalls. Very chuckable, and this is the goal for the BayEmVay, and the little coupe already handles similarly great. The BMW coupe weighs less than the Mondial, has a good bit less hp (200 vs 270) but more wonderful torque. Plan is to dial in the chassis before upping the power a bit.

Car currently has a kph speedo - where to get a mph?

 

[Bwana]

Car currently has a kph speedo - where to get a mph?

Try these guys

http://www.nhspeedometer.com/

 

[Arde]

Scott I did not mean to ignore your advice, I just may get there one change at a time. It is cool that we have a few folks trying things in parallel so we can compare notes, inlcuding yourself and snj5, and challenge John S to a faceoff in the Marina Foods parking lot.

I just ordered my sway bars, Bwana how do I check if they are from the bad batch?

 

[snj5]

Try these guys

http://www.nhspeedometer.com/

Perfect!
Thanks.

 

[61porsche]

Just for grins try Universal Speedometer in SA. Or for sure... Overseas Speedometer in Austin.

 

[decoupe]

Can anyone who has installed these larger bars comment on how the car responds in bumpy corners? BMW's of this vintage really were in a league of their own going through a bumpy corner at a brisk (not 9/10ths) pace.

Bob,

I've got the full handling set up - ST springs and 28/22mm sway bars with HD Bilsteins plus a bunch of other things - negative camber plates front strut bar and lots of welding and chassis work. I would definately call it very firm (bear in mind we live with frost which does such bad things to roads) but don't have an issue with the car doing scittles around corners at speed. I took the car to a track that was reputed to be very rough through the twisty parts I didn't find it bad at all - quite the contrary. Washboard and potholes though are to be avoided at all costs - like driving a vibrating bed. Decent gravel is fine - great. To get car to handle the way I want it on the roads I want to drive with such a soft chassis means the suspension has to be stiffly sprung - not a sophisticated package. Great turn in and very predictable - tons of fun but not for cruising the Ozarks.

There is a really nice coil over package with adjustable dampening I lust for but not enough to spend the $3500 to get it.

Was hurricane Sandy kind to you? Hope all of our eastern brethren are safe and well.

Doug

 

[Nicad]

I just measured my bars and must have a hybrid setup. My front bar is 23.25 and my rear is 16.25 give or take (STock?) Not sure what the stock diameters are if anyone knows them.

Doug, your car sounds like it matches the rest of the car. Toronto had some high winds. One death due to a falling sign , some power outages and trees knocked over. It has been raining for a week.

 

[Honolulu]

somebody wrote: You need to keep the car as level as possible for good handling and passenger comfort if you like to drive a bit quicker than the norm, and the best way to do this is with anti roll bars (sway bars)

But, ever the engineer, I beg to differ. Maximum handling is a lot of things, but in the end if your tires don't stick to the road, bad things happen. It is not sufficient to remove body roll via antisway bars, or stiff springs (and btw stiff springs will I think more quickly flatten the car).

Not sure passengers will prefer the car absolutely flat to the road either. One has to balance the rest of the car to the tires used, and tires have different characteristics as well.

I'm surprised that with this normally knowledgeable group, we haven't heard a more well-engineered discussion of spring rate, camber change, and antisway bars. But I guess with cars this old (mine is a '73) we are more oriented to simply keeping them fit to be on the road.

 

[deQuincey]

to add one point to this discussion
some may know that there is a question too of what is called "perceived" safety, i mean, we might be worried of what is a boat-kind behaviour, but does that mean that the car is not safe ?
we are now used to ultra stiff cars that give the right response to the road in a coordinated way, condidering the whole suspension system involving tyres, geometry, springs, but also mechanisms that define a progressive response to the road conditions
i am not sure that this can be inplemented partially to our old shellnuts....

 

[rsporsche]

+1 to both deQuincey + Honolulu.

it is all about balance - i very much agree that we need to understand the spring type and rate (progressive spring vs standard) and what the strength of the spring is. a really stiff spring and big bars will be flat and harsh - perfect for a nice, smooth race track at high speeds ... if as deQuincey has pointed out ... you stiffen the car to support the loads. surely most of us already are running bilstein HD's ... but who is running polyurethane bushings vs. standard ... or solid?

now for the problems - getting the spring data is next to impossible since there are limited suppliers. finding progressive springs ... good luck.

 

[deQuincey]

+1 to both deQuincey + Honolulu.

it is all about balance - i very much agree that we need to understand the spring type and rate (progressive spring vs standard) and what the strength of the spring is. a really stiff spring and big bars will be flat and harsh - perfect for a nice, smooth race track at high speeds ... if as deQuincey has pointed out ... you stiffen the car to support the loads. surely most of us already are running bilstein HD's ... but who is running polyurethane bushings vs. standard ... or solid?

now for the problems - getting the spring data is next to impossible since there are limited suppliers. finding progressive springs ... good luck.

i am not an expert, so i dont know if this is the solution, but what i do know is that there is a source of progressive springs for our e9 !

wallothnesch !

i have been talking to them in my visits to their place the last three years, what i know is that they had a supplier capable of producing those progressive springs, i do not remember if they were supposed to be a different section, or a different pattern of gap between spring wires, but the fact is that they had them for cars like e21

so all my talks had been confirming that it was an interest of producing those, but finally they had not gone into production for some reason

IMHO, if we start sending mails to them we somehow can force a decission on producing those springs, who knows ?

i will do my homework by myself and i am just sending my mail today !