Celebrity CSL

[Arde]

I checked and confirmed that one of the moderators fixed a spelling issue. Technically the (correctly spelled) word was a homophone if you are interested.

FWIW, I modify user posts almost daily. It’s almost always embedding attached images or an improperly structured quote (usually where your reply is part of the quoted text instead out outside of it).

My most recent edit was to a post by @dang so the overreach has no bounds! Moderators have an option to write a little message to the author explaining the mod. I don’t always use it, particularly when embedding images.

The only time the thematic content gets altered is when an otherwise great post flies off the rails for one sentence, and mods don’t want to delete the whole post. In those cases the author is always notified.

Wow, and you guys think it is right for readers to read a post by somebody, while content may have been altered by somebody else?

I get censoring by removing a message, but you guys can attribute to somebody something that the person never wrote? I fully trust the edits have been benign, but the modality is just scary. Do you get that this can be abused?
Do you grasp the concept of impersonation?
When I worked at Facebook we were told that an employee doing that would be walked out the same day.

 

[Markos]

Wow, and you guys think it is right for readers to read a post by somebody, while content may have been altered by somebody else?

@Arde,

I don’t think post edits are right or wrong. It is a reality associated with moderating an active forum. There is no slippery slope here no matter how much you want to enlighten the volunteer staff on the site.

I’m not sure what other forums you frequent, but this is the most self policing, civil forum I have frequented in the past 26 years. You can almost count the number of banned users and locked threads on one hand. Members are generally respectful to one another, even when they disagree. Reported posts are triaged in a responsive fashion, even though we all have work and/or activities home lives to attend to. I don’t think one could ask for a better forum experience.

@HB Chris substituted a homophone for an ESL member. @Markos embeds attached images and fixes broken quotes. @dang removes an F-bomb instead of deleting a post and/or and locking an entire thread. GASP! What is this forum coming to?

I’m an admin for non-BMW facebook groups as well and can say that the content of a thread can’t be modified by an admin - only deleted. A facebook group can however be taken down without recourse by parent company Meta with 3+ reported violations.

There are four active e9 groups with some really compelling stance photos and alternative e9 facts if you wish to frequent them instead. I regret to inform you that posts about the global economy and US domestic policy will not fly within any of these groups.

• https://m.facebook.com/groups/bmwe9/
• https://m.facebook.com/groups/259650574178391/
• https://m.facebook.com/groups/40672231902/
• https://m.facebook.com/groups/28798541523/

 

[HB Chris]

And in conclusion, I know Mehrdad, have sold him parts, know the owner of his former Colorado CSi that Murray helped sell a dozen years ago as well. I know he is very eloquent and thought I was doing a favor to correct an innocuous word. No good deed goes unpunished it seems but no need to go full Sean Hannity either.

 

[dang]

Ugh I see that. Embedded images too much by your 1024x768 CRT monitor, or was your dial up causing you grief?

Both. Actually, my screen setting at work is 3440x1440. But who's counting.

 

[dang]

Anybody care to explain why the content would be edited? For spelling perhaps?

I never edit content. I do occasionally edit a title that is misspelled. I've tried to edit Markos' content to make it more coherent but eventually gave up.

 

[merdad]

And in conclusion, I know Mehrdad, have sold him parts, know the owner of his former Colorado CSi that Murray helped sell a dozen years ago as well. I know he is very eloquent and thought I was doing a favor to correct an innocuous word. No good deed goes unpunished it seems but no need to go full Sean Hannity either.

Absolutely,

 

[Keshav]

And in conclusion, I know Mehrdad, have sold him parts, know the owner of his former Colorado CSi that Murray helped sell a dozen years ago as well. I know he is very eloquent and thought I was doing a favor to correct an innocuous word. No good deed goes unpunished it seems but no need to go full Sean Hannity either.

You could fix your spelling of his name though

 

[merdad]

You could fix your spelling of his name though

He actually used my correct name. I chose a long time ago to drop the “h” since it made it kind of difficult for folks to pronouns the name. So it became “Merdad”, and I am totally happy with it.

 

[Markos]

Sorry @dang I thought you recently removed F bombs from a contentious thread. Upon like the OP removed them himself. I recall a few desperate attempts in the COVID thread where I publicly removed the last paragraph of a post or two, notified the author, and I believe added a visual indicator to the post itself. No no surprise that thread turned into a shit show.

I also sometimes tag users who were mentioned in a post.

So if someone says,

“He’s not on here daily, but I believe keshav knows the answer to this question.”

I will change the user reference to a tag. This in turn triggers and alert, and if specified in the users settings, an email. Helpful for infrequent users


“He’s not on here daily, but I believe @Keshav knows the answer to this question.”


One has to know that maybe 1% of posts are ever touched. Most people know how to quote text. Most people fix their spelling issues themselves. Most people embed their attached photos. There is no Sr. Editor on the payroll.

 

[Arde]

And in conclusion, I know Mehrdad, have sold him parts, know the owner of his former Colorado CSi that Murray helped sell a dozen years ago as well. I know he is very eloquent and thought I was doing a favor to correct an innocuous word. No good deed goes unpunished it seems but no need to go full Sean Hannity either.

Chris I know I like and respect all board members, including yourself.
I do not welcome the Hannity ad hominem.

 

[Arde]

I am afraid my point is being missed. With all good intentions and behavior, if moderators can edit a present or past post they have the power to have me say things that are illegal (like making threats), things that can make me lose my job, or my reputation.

In my opinion the above danger outweighs the benefit of fixing a typo or whatever. Poor Albert or Alan would have 70% of their words changed and sanitized. Is that right? Or we'd rather hear their voices as they are through their writing?

Nota Bene: I am not on any E9 Facebook group, I said Facebook would fire an employee that alters user content as impersonation. I did not start the Covid thread, and heck yes I opined on inflation. Go back and read who was right on that.

 

[eriknetherlands]

I am afraid my point is being missed. With all good intentions and behavior, if moderators can edit a present or past post they have the power to have me say things that are illegal (like making threats), things that can make me lose my job, or my reputation.

I see the risk @Arde, but I have full confidence in our volunteer mod's and admin's. Think they are running a better show then most paid staff in my team.

(If those with higher powers can modify my statements, then it also means I can always claim "it wasn't me". Wouldn't it?)

 

[Arde]

I see the risk @Arde, but I have full confidence in our volunteer mod's and admin's. Think they are running a better show then most paid staff in my team.

(If those with higher powers can modify my statements, then it also means I can always claim "it wasn't me". Wouldn't it?)

And how would you know Erik that one of your past messages was edited so that you could come and claim it wasn't you? How would a message from a past member that was edited, like Orangener or Murray, find a fair resolution. How many times celebrities that committed faux pas online that tainted their reputation resorted to the non-believable "somebody stole my password". Well, the excuse of a "moderator wrote for me" is equally lame.

Why go there? My name is my signature. Would you let a moderator sign your checks?

 

[Markos]

@Arde,

I propose that to you formulate a personal risk/reward assessment on forum use. All forums allow admins to modify content, and nearly all forums rely on volunteerism with minimal P&P’s. Yeah admins can disable some capabilities, but the same admin who can disable features can also enable them and behave badly. So how are these risks mitigated? Policy?

Your entire premise is based on bad actors with administrative abilities. There are three of us. Let’s name names. Who is the bad actor here? Are you pontificating out loud or actually trying to a real problem with measurable consequences?

Some of us just want to talk about BMW’s.

 

[eriknetherlands]

Wouldn't an edited message say so at the bottom of that message?

I do see the risk that the situation you point out exists. There's no mechanism in place that prevents it. Yes it can happen.
But so is the risk that I get side swiped in my not so very solid Coupe. I accept that as well.

I just trust that the risk (change*effect) of having a post eddited (by our great volunteer force !) in a detrimental way for me is low. Lower then other risks I have in life.

And I am not a celebrity, (yet...) so that also makes it easier as there is less chance that journalists are diving into my forum posts.

And there is a great benefit to having mod's and admins being capable to edit.
For me that advantage outweighs the risk, but that is a very personal judgement, and I fully respect it if someone is more carfull, or may even opt out of interweb/fora life because of that.

Risk free life? I was told my coupe had no rust....

 

[Arde]

@Arde,

I propose that to you formulate a personal risk/reward assessment on forum use. All forums allow admins to modify content, and nearly all forums rely on volunteerism with minimal P&P’s. Yeah admins can disable some capabilities, but the same admin who can disable features can also enable them and behave badly. So how are these risks mitigated? Policy?

Your entire premise is based on bad actors with administrative abilities. There are three of us. Let’s name names. Who is the bad actor here? Are you pontificating out loud or actually trying to a real problem with measurable consequences?

Some of us just want to talk about BMW’s.

@Markos.

My proposal is that moderators delete but never edit posts. They can, instead, suggest edits to the authors, and they do the honors. Not that hard, really. Are you open minded about accepting such an incremental improvement?

My premise is that there are bad actors and bad actions in every human endeavor. Sooner or later.
Would you accept a forum where I, Arde, can edit your posts?

I have no visibility into how many moderators there are, and I should not care. My wife reminds me every week that the parents of an ex-girlfriend of mine threw a party when we broke up. Maybe one of them will once be a moderator .

Markos, you can talk about whatever you want, the thought process sometimes takes you into adjacent topics, and you have taken tangents at times. That is fine. Are DQ's posts on exquisite Basque cooking about BMWs? Are you going to reprimand him as well? Food preferences can divide us as much as economic policy...

 

[dang]

My proposal is that moderators delete but never edit posts.

This is basically what we agreed on yesterday. Going forward there will be no edits to content. Threads and posts can be deleted to keep the peace but that's never done without others knowing.

 

[Markos]

@Markos.

Markos, you can talk about whatever you want, the thought process sometimes takes you into adjacent topics, and you have taken tangents at times. That is fine. Are DQ's posts on exquisite Basque cooking about BMWs? Are you going to reprimand him as well? Food preferences can divide us as much as economic policy...

@Arde,

Your recommendation is sound and as @dang mentioned was agreed upon without blinking.

As for the rest. Let me be clear. You - more than anyone on the site annoy the living shit out of me. I would rather have thanksgiving dinner with my father than engage with you, and that says a lot. Even so, you have not been “reprimanded”. This is free BMW enthusiast site and you march around pressing the limits of political content and conspiracy theories for no apparent reason. You are either obtuse or get your jollies from negative attention. There is no first ammendment on a private forum. You can be booted at any time, at will - myself included (maybe after this post). Nobody would do that with you because again, this site is civil and self policing.

Feel free to take this as a personal attack if you will, because I simply do not like you or your forum behavior. I am removing myself as a moderator. My apologies to @HB Chris and @dang for the capacity hit, but I don’t have time for this shit. 95% of the forum drama comes from 5% of the users. I’m not having a bad day or a bad week. This is a long time coming and you are the icing on the cake.

 

[Arde]

This is basically what we agreed on yesterday. Going forward there will be no edits to content. Threads and posts can be deleted to keep the peace but that's never done without others knowing.

I appreciate your flexibility and agility in deciding this. Really.
I know there was no ill intent, but I think it is for the better.
Thanks for your patience .

 

[Arde]

@Arde,

Your recommendation is sound and as @dang mentioned was agreed upon without blinking.

As for the rest. Let me be clear. You - more than anyone on the site annoy the living shit out of me. I would rather have thanksgiving dinner with my father than engage with you, and that says a lot. Even so, you have not been “reprimanded”. This is free BMW enthusiast site and you march around pressing the limits of political content and conspiracy theories for no apparent reason. You are either obtuse or get your jollies from negative attention. There is no first ammendment on a private forum. You can be booted at any time, at will - myself included (maybe after this post). Nobody would do that with you because again, this site is civil and self policing.

Feel free to take this as a personal attack if you will, because I simply do not like you or your forum behavior. I am removing myself as a moderator. My apologies to @HB Chris and @dang for the capacity hit, but I don’t have time for this shit. 95% of the forum drama comes from 5% of the users. I’m not having a bad day or a bad week. This is a long time coming and you are the icing on the cake.

Thanks Markos for your candor. It kind of proves there can be personal animosity in moderators, so the new system works.
When you get a chance please post or PM which conspiracy theory I submitted. It will help me introspect and improve.