1974 3.0CSL on BaT

[Markos]

Yes, plenty of things to improve on this car...I wanted to bring to attention that the car stayed almost a year at BMW before going to Denzel in Austria, the BMW importer and supporter of several racing teams. One could think that the car was used by one of the co worker in Munich...also reasons to believe this car was born as a City pack. All the surviving 3.2 liters cars have most likely been converted to full winged CSLs by now.

Im thinking out loud here. I didn’t get an answer on the 12k € aluminum bits, but this car’s aluminum boot would reinforce this theory. The striker rivets look period, which I can’t say for the rest of the restoration. They used hex screws on the door hinges so I can’t imagine that they sourced the proper striker rivets if the aluminum boot lid is a repop. That leads me to believe it is original. Also not sure why one would intentionally use an aluminum boot with a bat kit if they were knowledgeable of the original configuration during restoration.

 

[BMW Pete]

Im thinking out loud here. I didn’t get an answer on the 12k € aluminum bits, but this car’s aluminum boot would reinforce this theory. The striker rivets look period, which I can’t say for the rest of the restoration. They used hex screws on the door hinges so I can’t imagine that they sourced the proper striker rivets if the aluminum boot lid is a repop. That leads me to believe it is original. Also not sure why one would intentionally use an aluminum boot with a bat kit if they were knowledgeable of the original configuration during restoration.

If I may on your last point and I am certainly not saying this is what has happened.

But one would use an aluminum trunk in a restoration for a possible few reasons. One, it enhances the offering to non knowledgable minds. It is often presumed that all CSL's have all four aluminum openings, with a little knowledge, a buyer can understand the steel trunk issue and with a little more knowledge, one can understand how many CSLs actually had standard door skins, so to say "look all four aluminum panels" pleases the non knowledgeable and excites those with a little knowledge.

On another point, if somebody is restoring a CSL and you had access to an aluminum trunk or you had to purchase the aluminum panels, as this car seems to indicate , the temptation to add an Aluminum trunk would be appetizing to say the least, especially considering the other non factory changes on this particular car, it could make sense.

Again, I am not saying this is what happened, just answering the hypothetical question of "why"

 

[Markos]

Posting this here before it is flagged for removal:

 

[lip277]

I would say I feel sorry for the owner of the car here...
But, then I remember the engine VIN thing and... No. Not really much sympathy. They had to have a hand in what went on.
This is too bad. The car could have been presented honestly and forthrightly and received a welcoming response as such.
A 50 year old CSL with a replacement engine is not a car I'd kick out of bed for eating crackers... (don't know why I said that - but it is appropriate here - LOL).

But - the mess this listing has really shows the current reduction in 'the value' of what BaT has become now (IMO anyway).

Will be interesting to see where this one goes.

 

[wkohler]

If I may on your last point and I am certainly not saying this is what has happened.

But one would use an aluminum trunk in a restoration for a possible few reasons. One, it enhances the offering to non knowledgable minds. It is often presumed that all CSL's have all four aluminum openings, with a little knowledge, a buyer can understand the steel trunk issue and with a little more knowledge, one can understand how many CSLs actually had standard door skins, so to say "look all four aluminum panels" pleases the non knowledgeable and excites those with a little knowledge.

On another point, if somebody is restoring a CSL and you had access to an aluminum trunk or you had to purchase the aluminum panels, as this car seems to indicate , the temptation to add an Aluminum trunk would be appetizing to say the least, especially considering the other non factory changes on this particular car, it could make sense.

Again, I am not saying this is what happened, just answering the hypothetical question of "why"

I guess the concerns of the large wing on the aluminum trunk wouldn't be a concern on a car that's never driven or perhaps they weren't aware of the concern and it's just easier to not explain that? It's funny because the subsequent pages of the certificate specifically mention only the hood and doors in aluminum.

 

[tferrer]

This auction is a very strange approach to buyer engagement..."To me all cars are perfect… because they give me joy when I drive them."

Which basically says -I will sell anything with wheels and describe it as perfect because I liked driving it.....

 

[JFENG]

many of the comments on all of their auctions are shill comments from within that group

If this actually starts meaninfully hurting BAT’s financial returns, they can hire, as piece-work independent contractors, marque/model experts to provide meaningful commentary based solely on their own knowledge and info in the BAT listing.

These people would get special designations on BAT as per-screened, trusted, guaranteed unbiased experts.

Compared to BAT revenue this would be an insignificant cost. Would HBChris, Markos, Pete, DeliaWolf etal. post honest reviews of BAT E9 submissions (based solely on the BAT listing content) for $300 a car?

 

[Stevehose]

What I would like to know, is it legal to stamp a non-original block with the car’s VIN?

 

[Arde]

Compared to BAT revenue this would be an insignificant cost. Would HBChris, Markos, Pete, DeliaWolf etal. post honest reviews of BAT E9 submissions (based solely on the BAT listing content) for $300 a car?

What, I can get money for my honest yet bitter bile on somebody else's car? Sign me up. I have been doing that for free around here...

 

[Arde]

What I would like to know, is it legal to stamp a non-original block with the car’s VIN?

It probably depends on the locale where the stamping was done. Then there are the ramifications of exporting, selling, registering, and operating a car with altered VIN.

Finally, there is the risk of extralegal reactions by victims. I once had a 77 Euro E24 with terminal rust, and did a cosmetic repair in Queens, NY at a friend's body shop. It came out beautiful. I drove it for a couple more years. The shop owner warned me not to sell it, lest somebody would feel cheated when the rust returned, and put a bullet on my person. He knew the streets in Queens...

 

[Markos]

It probably depends on the locale where the stamping was done. Then there are the ramifications of exporting, selling, registering, and operating a car with altered VIN.

I would think that doing this in Germany and exporting it from Germany would be frowned upon by their government.

 

[lip277]

As Markos has done...
In case my comment goes away also....

 

[eriknetherlands]

yikes: putting a car on the market, in this price range with duck tape and tye-wraps. That's it. I'm out. I'm not bidding

 

[Bmachine]

Which basically says -I will sell anything with wheels and describe it as perfect because I liked driving it.....

Or, perhaps more pointedly, - because I want to make a mint on it and since I am such a god, whatever I claim to like, so should you, the great unwashed -

 

[wkohler]

Well the original block has surfaced and it’s a legit stamp with a date code that falls in line. ‘81 head but it’s a better head anyway.

Argument being made that it’s totally normal to stamp blocks is unsettling. Usually when the replacement blocks would be stamped the + would be stamped as an x on each side of the number.

 

[lip277]

Now the 'original' engine has been found....
Amazingly convenient....

 

[coupedegrace]

yikes: putting a car on the market, in this price range with duck tape and tye-wraps. That's it. I'm out. I'm not bidding

Hey - somebody snuck in my garage and took pictures of my car!

 

[HB Chris]

Well the original block has surfaced and it’s a legit stamp with a date code that falls in line. ‘81 head but it’s a better head anyway.

Argument being made that it’s totally normal to stamp blocks is unsettling. Usually when the replacement blocks would be stamped the + would be stamped as an x on each side of the number.

And the 81 head has the mechanical fuel pump ports and stud holes.

 

[ablank135]

If this actually starts meaninfully hurting BAT’s financial returns, they can hire, as piece-work independent contractors, marque/model experts to provide meaningful commentary based solely on their own knowledge and info in the BAT listing.

These people would get special designations on BAT as per-screened, trusted, guaranteed unbiased experts.

Compared to BAT revenue this would be an insignificant cost. Would HBChris, Markos, Pete, DeliaWolf etal. post honest reviews of BAT E9 submissions (based solely on the BAT listing content) for $300 a car?

As noble and helpful as this idea sounds, BaT will go to any length to not offer an opinion on a vehicle that they could be held accountable for, including hiring/sponsoring/promoting individual experts.

 

[Mal CSL 3.0]

E9coupe.com is in my opinion the best technical and expertise resource, and community that exists for any classic marque. Yet again proven with the input provided during this BAT CSL sale. (Not an E9 lynch mob as someone posted)

It is great news the original engine block will be back with the car. A great achievement of e9coupe experts in pushing the seller to achieve this milestone. The seller should also be pretty pleased as additional $$$ will now be added to the sale price with this real block reunited and sold with this important and rare CSL.

Also just to add, likely the BMW Cert wasn't supplied incorrectly, as it was issued in 2017 when the correct engine block was probably in the car. In light of the fact that someone re-stamped a different block between 2017 and 2021 (restoration date) this shows the inherent risks around providing these Certs. I suspect such risks is why BMW Classic has sadly recently cancelled this Certification programme.