Csi vs CS

[Boobouna]

Hello all,

Now I wanted to hear any opinions on this. The only reason I am bringing this up is because I am seeing CS prices locally and globally not far off CSi prices, yet CSL prices are significantly higher than CSi which you would expect. Logically as CSL prices push most of us out of the market, you would expect those buyers to look at the next best thing, the CSi. Much like you see with the Porsche 911's, even the 912's here in Australia are in to 6 figures, whereas only a few years ago they were hardly looked at.
IMO CSi prices seem low, or is it that CS prices are too high, or is it CSL prices are too high. Which is it????


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[m73]

I personally think CSi prices are too low. Many reasons why I consider this fact:

1) Carb vehicles have a rich history & many petrol-heads will pay a premium for a clean car
2) 3.0-3.5 liter injected upgrades saturate the market + give a solid alternative to an original CSi
3) Never sold in US & European versions may have rust--makes finding a clean CSi difficult
4) Non-upgradable injection system + electronic are not options enthusiasts really want (mechanical injection has a certain appeal + modifying seems interesting)

These are just my 'opinions' & there could be more reasons for this & or not all of my list may be considered 'correct' assumptions.

Fun to speculate though,

-Mo

 

[teahead]

I think CSIs are probably 10-20% more than CS.

However, most CSIs are bare bones. No leather, no AC, no sunroof, which I think makes them not quite as desirable. Plus it's a lot easier to add CSi features (L-Jet from an E12, early E24) than to add the former.

 

[rodspock]

The CSL has rarity and race pedigree on its side - this outweighs any real performance gain over the CS and CSis.

I think that the performance step from a CS to a CSi is not that large - about 10 additional hp. Ultimately the market is more concerned with body condition over a small variation in performance.

If you want performance convert your CS to manual and add Webers!

Cheers,

Rod

 

[scottd]

Opinion only but the real comparison is always Rusty vs Not Rusty, and I agree that CSs were brought to States and many made it through without the same issues as many Euro cars. I know my cars history as well, which is more difficult with a car that started outside US. That combined with the loads of options keep CS close to CSi.

You mention longhood Porsches and I think the same holds true. Early 911S prices (like CSL) are higher than the 911E or 911T (like CSi or CS) which are close in price or the same based upon condition.


Scott

 

[Mal CSL 3.0]

The CSi appears to be rarer at about 8300 units built versus the CS variants with about 21,000 (if you believe Wikipedia). So theoretically the CSi should be a bit more expensive because rarer. However I agree that the E9 prices seem to be driven currently more by body conditions, interior, paint colour, and manual vs auto.
I have an injected E9 (with the system recently refurbished) and I must say it starts perfectly first time every time, idles extremely smoothly and evenly, is totally reliable and makes the drive very responsive. I am actually quite in awe of how good the D-Jetronic injection system actually is considering it's from 1972. So I am bit surprised the injected E9 CSi's don't seems to have much of a price difference versus the CS.

 

[Aussiecsi]

...to some extent "horses for courses " .As recently discussed on another thread , there are 207 RHD "435 series " CSi's ...and according to HBChris maybe another 200 or so "out there ". Given total number is less than the 500 CSL's , I think there is an argument for "scarcity =value " as Mal CSL alludes to. Yes, the CSL's were the "racer" , but from what I've read, the CSI's were promoted as having the same performance but with the ride and accessories for the "gentleman " of the day . Significantly more LHD CSI's of nearly 8,000 were made. A cs with well triple webers is intoxicating , but a well sorted csi that fires on first turn of the key and doesn't miss a beat is, well, pretty hard to beat . But generally speaking , I think people will pay somewhat of a premium for a genuine "i" . My 2 cents.

 

[2275xxx]

+1
A well sorted CSi is a great drivers car and feels definitely more sporty than a stock CS.

In the 70s there was certainly a greater proportion of well equipped CSis than what we see in the market today.

True, many people who bought a new CSi in Europe could not afford to add all the nice options.
Especially in countries like France, many of them had no option at all.
But this was less true in Germany, Switzerland, Benelux.

So why are there so few well equipped CSis in the market nowadays ?
First likely reason is that sunroof cars rusted quicker. At a time when the E9 was worth nothing, more sunroof cars were sent to the scrapeyard, proportionally;
Second reason is that well equipped CSis tend to be kept by their owners;
Third reason is that when sellers want to sell, well equipped cars (in good condition) do not need to be advertised - and if they are advertised, they disappear much quicker from the radar.

 

[Markos]

So why are there so few well equipped CSis in the market nowadays ?
First likely reason is that sunroof cars rusted quicker. At a time when the E9 was worth nothing, more sunroof cars were sent to the scrapeyard, proportionally;
Second reason is that well equipped CSis tend to be kept by their owners;
Third reason is that when sellers want to sell, well equipped cars (in good condition) do not need to be advertised - and if they are advertised, they disappear much quicker from the radar.

Yes every time I hear that CSI's we're slick top and fabric I get a sinking feeling. My unsaveable parts CSI had awesome specs. AC, Leather, Power Windows, Sunroof, Rear Fog. I suspect that someone just drove the hell out of it and that is why it is so rusty. The sunroof drain areas are beyond repair.

 

[Ohmess]

The CSL has rarity and race pedigree on its side - this outweighs any real performance gain over the CS and CSis.

I think that the performance step from a CS to a CSi is not that large - about 10 additional hp. Ultimately the market is more concerned with body condition over a small variation in performance.

If you want performance convert your CS to manual and add Webers!

Cheers,

Rod

I bought my car a couple of years ago, and rodspock has hit upon my thinking precisely. The condition of the car was by far the most important element of the search, particularly with respect to rust. And so, I found a rust free CS auto, swapped in a five speed and changed to a set of sidedraft Webers. Yeah, it sometimes takes a little coaxing to start, and runs rough until its warm, but the I like the experience of driving a car with carbs. They look great, sound fabulous, and I love the instant throttle response.

 

[deQuincey]

+1
A well sorted CSi is a great drivers car and feels definitely more sporty than a stock CS.
.

i would like you to demonstrate that,...more sporty ?

I bought my car a couple of years ago, and rodspock has hit upon my thinking precisely. The condition of the car was by far the most important element of the search, particularly with respect to rust. And so, I found a rust free CS auto, swapped in a five speed and changed to a set of sidedraft Webers. Yeah, it sometimes takes a little coaxing to start, and runs rough until its warm, but the I like the experience of driving a car with carbs. They look great, sound fabulous, and I love the instant throttle response.

i essentially agree that the car you find in good condition and within your budget is ususally the car you like most, once you are satisfied with the overall picture it is not that critical the colour, the type of engine, and so on (this is particularly true if you are in the level of 2800cs, 30cs, and 30csi, on the other hand you have the csls that is a completely different story)

i can understand that the question avobe makes sense if you want to keep the car stock, i mean, the original mechanical injection or the original carbs, if you start to make changes you are somehow losing the focus of the question

yes, you can "downgrade" your csi installing modern engines, but what is the interest then, yes you make the car more reliable and you can go to your bmw dealer workshop for repairs, so what ? well basically there is no that part of the joy of preserving the car holistically as an original classic car

and you can transform your carbs too going webers, some might say that those were period correct setups (i do not know, so i will not discuss)

if the question is cs vs csi on stock configuration both of them are nice, i do not agree on the csi being more sporty unless your zeniths are not properly tuned, but that is not a fair comparison

i love the setup of the admisión manifold tubes in the csi, it was quite an unique configuration, later versions go the "spider" route and it IS NOT the same

i love the way the zeniths perform they can be smooth as silk and then brutal when revs climb up in the meter

i did not made a choice back then, the car in front of me was blue and carbed, i am now probably building an argument on that pure reality, so now i can say that i prefer a cs because all my other cars are injection, it does not sound very original but is a true story

 

[Markos]

The condition of the car was by far the most important element of the search, particularly with respect to rust.

Everyone says that unless it's a lowly 2800 CS

 

[Arde]

i prefer a cs because all my other cars are injection, it does not sound very original but is a true story

That is brilliant. It argues that the rarity argument should be applied locally to your own household, not to the entire market. DQ is right.

 

[Ohmess]

i would like you to demonstrate that,...more sporty ?



i essentially agree that the car you find in good condition and within your budget is ususally the car you like most, once you are satisfied with the overall picture it is not that critical the colour, the type of engine, and so on (this is particularly true if you are in the level of 2800cs, 30cs, and 30csi, on the other hand you have the csls that is a completely different story)

i can understand that the question avobe makes sense if you want to keep the car stock, i mean, the original mechanical injection or the original carbs, if you start to make changes you are somehow losing the focus of the question

yes, you can "downgrade" your csi installing modern engines, but what is the interest then, yes you make the car more reliable and you can go to your bmw dealer workshop for repairs, so what ? well basically there is no that part of the joy of preserving the car holistically as an original classic car

and you can transform your carbs too going webers, some might say that those were period correct setups (i do not know, so i will not discuss)

if the question is cs vs csi on stock configuration both of them are nice, i do not agree on the csi being more sporty unless your zeniths are not properly tuned, but that is not a fair comparison

i love the setup of the admisión manifold tubes in the csi, it was quite an unique configuration, later versions go the "spider" route and it IS NOT the same

i love the way the zeniths perform they can be smooth as silk and then brutal when revs climb up in the meter

i did not made a choice back then, the car in front of me was blue and carbed, i am now probably building an argument on that pure reality, so now i can say that i prefer a cs because all my other cars are injection, it does not sound very original but is a true story

You raise a good point. Perhaps I am not the right person to weigh in on questions concerning originality. My car was painted a pearl white, which I believe is a Cadillac color, and the interior was changed from blue to tan. Moreover, the prior owner of my car had removed the original zeniths and installed Weber downdrafts.

I inspected and considered a stock CSi before I bought my car, and it did not seem to me that my car was giving up a lot in performance.

The Webers in my car were supposed to have been an upgrade, but I think a primary reason for the conversions here in the US was that there were lots of people who had Weber experience, and relatively few felt confident working with the Zeniths. I like the triple weber sidedrafts over the dual downdrafts. Who knows; I may like the Zeniths even better. I've never driven one of our cars with well sorted Zeniths.

 

[2275xxx]

i would like you to demonstrate that,...more sporty ?

Ooops.
Jesus, I do not intend to ignite a religious war.

I never said Zenith equiped cars are not nice.
I had a few and I liked them a lot.
All E9s are nice.
Believe me: one car I really regret having sold was a 2800CS Automatik.
A minty low-Km Tundragrün car with tan leather - it felt like new.




But... it is not especially surprising that a car with 10% more power and with more torque lower down feels a bit livelier.

Also, among vintage electronic injection systems, the D-Jetronic is special :
because there is no AFM (no flap) the engine is very spontaneous - like on DCOEs

 

[teahead]

Stock for stock, same options and condition, Csi is worth a bit more than CS. How much more is up for debate.

 

[Bwana]

I like my CSi just for the D-Jet coolness factor. It's hard to beat the look of those intake runners. As mentioned above, a well sorted system runs flawlessly, as mine now does. And I have to believe, in bone stock form, it is a little quicker than a CS as it does have 10% more power. So yea, they "should" command a slightly higher price, but only given that if two comparable cars have the same body condition.

(I tell people I have an "electric" FI system, not an electronic one. Don't you have to be digital to be "electronic"? )

 

[Stevehose]

My triples are intoxicating AND start on the first turn of the key

I guess I am just a Luddite and prefer carbs, besides low end torque and intake sound, the simplicity makes me feel like I can do a roadside repair or at least hobble home should something go amiss. No sensors and computers that could dump out in the middle of nowhere.

So I'd put a premium on a CS even if the interiors etc are equal. Different strokes

A cs with well triple webers is intoxicating , but a well sorted csi that fires on first turn of the key and doesn't miss a beat is, well, pretty hard to beat . But generally speaking , I think people will pay somewhat of a premium for a genuine "i" . My 2 cents.

 

[Markos]

My triples are intoxicating AND start on the first turn of the key

I guess I am just a Luddite and prefer carbs, besides low end torque and intake sound, the simplicity makes me feel like I can do a roadside repair or at least hobble home should something go amiss. No sensors and computers that could dump out in the middle of nowhere.

So I'd put a premium on a CS even if the interiors etc are equal. Different strokes

To Arde's point and others about the rarity of one's own vehicles. It won't necessarily help resale, but I'm looking forward to driving a car with triples, a four speed trans, no-ac, and manual windows. The no-ac thing is debatable but I like the simplicity of an AC-Free engine bay and dash. I do like the contour of the AC console sides better though.