When did BMW switch from ZF to Getrag gearboxes in E3/9's?

[G-Man]

I was just wondering when BMW made the switch from ZF manual gearboxes to Getrag. I'm thinking it was the 71 model year since my 70 E3 has a ZF gearbox.

G-Man

 

[corsachili]

Didn't the switch happen after the 2800CS?

 

[dp]

Pretty sure TJ's on the money here. That'd be the 71 model year when the 3.0 engine was introduced to the E3 and E9 platforms (3.0CS E9, and 3.0S and Bavaria E3's.) I don't recall ever seeing a factory-built street 3.0 (E9 or E3) with a ZF 4-speed trans in Hoffmann's US market. And I don't recall ever seeing any '68-'71 2500 sedan, 2800 sedan or 2800CS street cars with a Getrag in the US market

edited, after forgetting the board has international readers. I can only speak for US market, and only for cars I have personally seen here,

I rather liked the ZF's, even used ZF 4-speeds a few times for Auto-trans-to-manual conversions, on mostly Bavarias but a couple of coupes also. A lot of people cannot stand them but I think they're kinda snick-snick cool shifters in a slightly un-refined way. Getrags can be so pedestrian! 8)

 

[Tierfreund]

I have a 71 3.0S E3 that has the ZF. So far for the 2800 only theory. The factory parts catalog will tell you that the ZF didn´t come on the 3.0, but I´ve talked to W&N about it and they agree that´s an error. The ZF has been in the 3.0 as well. I guess you could say though, the later the car the more likely a Getrag.

As for the quality of the ZF, I agree about the shifter feel, it´s not bad. A bit agricultural, but in a AK47 kind of way.

The box itself is nasty though. It rattles even when new (bearings). As long as you drive not to fast, the box will cope, but when I take my E3 for an extended cruise at Vmax (hey I´m in the land of the unrestricted bahn...), the box almost explodes. Seems the bearings can´t take higher revs for an extended time (or the resulting higher gearbox oil temps). It starts rattling, vibrating and generally scaring you like no other box I´ve seen.
Plus it leaks, no matter what you throw at it.

Mine is on its way out as I speak to be replaced with a 265.

 

[Bill Riblett]

Transmission change from ZF to Getrag

According to Road & Track (an American car magazine) in an article by Ron Wakefield titled "BMW for 72" in the December 1971 issue:

"There is a surprise behind the engine--a new gearbox, built by Getrag, a part of the ZF organization, which is now more than half owned by Borg Warner. The 2.5-2.8 gearbox, also a ZF unit with B-W synchronizers, wasn't up to th 3.0's torque and had exhibited weak synchro action on 2nd gear on many 2.8s. Ratios are virtually the same in the new box."

This article is also reprinted in the Brooklands Gold Portfolio "BMW Six Cylinder Coupes and Saloons"

Ron Wakefield owned a couple of E9s when they were new and wrote road test articles about them for Road & Track in the early 70s. He also coauthored (with Helmut Schrader) the book BMW: A History" which I think is one of the best histories of BMW ever.

 

[blumax]

ZF's and Getrags in US spec E-9's

BLUMAX--# 16 of the US spec E-9's came with the venerable 4 speed ZF--nice snick snick--but don't abuse or miss your shift as second gear syncros were usually out of sorts after a couple of misses--similar to the experiences with all 356 Porsches. Later in life--after a couple of rebuilds of the ZF and about 300,000 miles I fitted a 4 speed Getrag--shift effort went up and felt very tractor like compared to the ZF's greater snick snick feel.

But now with the 265-5 speed OD unit with short shifter it falls somewhere in between--actually a very satisfactory shifter feel

 

[corsachili]

I'm actually considering, as part of my return to originality bent, installing the 4spd ZF box back in my CSL. My theory is that with the 3:25 rear end it's much better suited. With the current 5spd and 3:25 rear I've got very very long legs, but I'm sacrificing a lot of off the line speed and frankly you can't get away with 85MPH on California highways. I'll likely miss the very precise shortshift kit I've got on the 5spd, but the 4spd will add its own kind of character to the car.

 

[dp]

2270011 (#11, the Hoffmann show car) was also an ZF 4-speed, thrashed when I got the car and I replaced it with a Getrag. But then I put that ZF in a Silver Bav that had been an automatic and it was fine, until an underhood fire destroyed the electricals and I abandoned the car somewhere west of Laramie. Must have been the tranny.

Been saving a 5-speed ZF for the coupe until if/when/if ever I get her back out on the road (after that shunt what, 6-8 years ago??!?)

TJ : the first four gears in your 265 couldn't be THAT different from the four in a ZF.... and you're saying your 73 L had a ZF in it when you got it ??!??!

 

[MichaelP]

TJ, unless you're using a CR dogleg trans, the first four gears of the 5 speed are the essentially the same as the 4 speed. You'll have to bump the diff up to 3.45 (a la' the carbed CSL) to make any difference off the line. That said, I really like the smoother, albeit somewhat vague feel of the ZF, and its flabby 2nd gear syncro will make you a double declutching animal.

Gear ratios:

4-speed ZF (BMW E9)
1st 3.85
2nd 2.12
3rd 1.38
4th 1.00

4-speed Getrag (BMW E9)
1st 3.85
2nd 2.20
3rd 1.40
4th 1.00

5-speed Getrag 262/5 (e.g. 1981 528i)
1st 3.82
2nd 2.20
3rd 1.40
4th 1.00
5th 0.81

5-speed Getrag 262 CR
1st 3.72
2nd 2.40
3rd 1.77
4th 1.26
5th 1.00

 

[Tierfreund]

I´ll be happy to offer up my soon redundant ZF 4speed to anyone willing to pick up locally. I even have some spare bearings for the input shaft.

Pick up is in germany though.... :wink:

 

[dp]

I think the ZF's would respond very well to a Blanton-style upgrade to roller bearings, extra load-bearing capability and modern clearances would do these a world of good. Thats the plan for my hen'stooth-rare 5sp

Tier, thats a generous offer but m'thinks you're being facetious ... though people have badmouthed these trannies for so long most that were originally delivered stateside in our cars have been scrapped!

 

[gwittman]

I have always thought the ZF transmission is a good one. I have never had a problem with mine with the exception of being a little difficult when cold. I did have it rebuilt once because the syncros seemed to need to be refreshed. I am not easy on it and it has seen much high speed duty.

I have never driven with a Getrag transmission but ZF just sounds sportier than Getrag. Isn't that enough to make it better?

 

[dp]

gee, the age old which is "better" question....I don't think its majority rule here, guess some others don't either! Interesting thread though!

[Broken External Image]:http://www.kvpbrewing.com/images/GERMAN_BEER_GIRLS.jpg

my personal preference? The one with her face in the mug 8)

 

[BlauMitWeiss]

I had a '71 2002-Agave, in 1976??? and ended up changing the box with Porsche synchros to one that had the Borg-Warner synchros. Long time ago, don't recall the details. It shows that the ZF was problematic out of the box...

As far as the nicest, snick-snick transmission of all time....the Peugeot BA10/5, found in the Peugeot 505 as well as the Jeep CJ.

Best ever.

k





'"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Ben Franklin'

 

[corsachili]

dp-I didn't think that Getrag made 4spd gearboxes in 1973, but I thought that the 4spd box that was in the car when I got it was a ZF. I know that the first 4 gears are essentially the same as a 5spd, and I know about the magical combination of the 5spd Getrag with a 3:45 rear end as that's what my CS had. That car had a modified 3.5L motor in it and it had pretty good low end grunt. Obviously the 3:45 gives much better off the line acceleration and still delivers good long legs on the freeway. With a 3:25 and a 5spd you have VERY long legs, which can rarely be used here in North America, and sacrifice off the line acceleration. Compared to my CS that CSL has a lot less torque and the off the line performance is not impressive. I understand that I'd be giving up some of the nice action of the 5spd box if I go back to the 4 speed box but I really don't want to put a 3:45 rear end in the CSL. I'm on this originality kick lately........and I just like the idea of getting back to the car's true character, even if it's not optimal.

 

[pmansson]

I currently have a 3.64 LSD with the 5-speed OD Getrag in my CSL. This makes it a really fast car in the mountains in Switzerland where I live. With several final drives and gearboxes I can change fairly easily (esp. compared to the Jaguars which require the complete IRS to be taken down in order to get access to the final drive).

Next I will try the CR box as 2nd and 3rd are a bit too far apart for the mountain roads.

I am looking for a 5-speed ZF box. This is against most experts´ advice, but I love the ease with which it changes gears. I always clutch and give gas before downshifting and that saves the box when going from 3rd to 2nd, one of its weak points.

(I am led to believe that BMW changed from ZF to Getrag in 1971-72 because 1. it was cheaper and 2. misuse of the somewhat fragile ZF box had cost BMW a lot of money as customers brought cars back within the guarantee period with damaged gearboxes which often had to be replaced or repaired. Again this was expensive to BMW).

 

[Orangener]

I had such a ZF-5-speed, a very rare and expensive solution !
Its allready sold, to France, to a well known user with a very nice Inka-Alpina B2s!

I have now 2 4-speed Zf-on stock, and 5 Getrag 4-speed gearboxes.
Also 2 Getrag 262 5-speed with 1st gear left down (one from a 635 Alpina) and one in my Orange (3,45 with 40% LSD) and 1 Getrag 265 OD on stock for my E3-resto-projekt.

The click-click of the 4-speed-ZF i like most........

ZF-5-speed gearbox:

ZF-4-speed gearbox:

 

[Tierfreund]

Orange, I think you have more rarities in stock than BMW classic.... Amazing. :shock:

 

[dp]

Orange, I think you have more rarities in stock than BMW classic.... Amazing. :shock:

he shows off more ;-)

seriously, very very few of the readers here would ever see any of this stuff if it weren't for the forum and the enthusiasm of (in particular) our continental fellow-hobbiests ! keep it up !

[Broken External Image]:http://www.mye28.com/images/smiles/banana.gif

 

[Orangener]

We are all real man !
Jäger und Sammler we say in german, hunters and collectors.
It´s genetically fixed :wink: