VIN Fraud

dang

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The whole thing smells. The photo of the car implies that it's the car with the VIN plates and title, yet the title is from 1989. This means the car has been with the same owner for over thirty years. If I were Robert Koth (name on title) and found out about this, someone would be getting a beat down. Not to mention posting a name and address to the world.

EDIT: Looks like he lives in Brookfield, WI now.
 

rsporsche

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Robert Koth probably owned the car for a long period of time starting in 1989 ... the title was never changed or updated. the question is when the car was totaled and when / how the title, was transferred and to whom. you can see his signature on the back of the title showing through the front.

perhaps somebody should ask ego_bgo for a pic of the back side of the title. i cannot because he knows who i am.
 

rsporsche

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this just in from the DMV

Hello Scott,

Thank you for your response. I am happy to assist you further.
I would start with local authorities in Texas. Once they complete their investigation, they may decide this should be escalated.
You may also want to contact the Texas Attorney General’s office – Consumer Protection Division and their contact information is below.

Ken Paxton, Attorney General of Texas Department Of Motor Vehicles
300 W. 15th Street
Austin, TX 78701
= = = = = = = = = =
PO Box 12548
Austin, TX 78711
800-621-0508
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/consumer-protection

For your convenience, this email may contain a hyperlink(s), which is the text underlined and highlighted in blue. Click the hyperlinked word(s) to visit the referenced website or download a form.

I hope this information is helpful. Have a great evening!

Sincerely,

Denise || Customer Service Representative
Texas Department of Motor Vehicles

 

Ohmess

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As to the guy in Wisconsin, I found a post from 2004 on 2002ad.com from an Edgar Butler commenting on the purchase of this car, and indicating that it was too badly rusted to be saved. This indicates the WI guy on the title has long forgotten about it.

Unless they have changed the rules in WI, as long as he retained his plates and signed the odometer statement, he is done. And even if he wanted to jump into this, what could he do that we are not doing?
 

Markos

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Yep, and I reported it again this morning. Can't believe eBay isn't doing anything about it.

I‘m certainly no lawyer but don’t think that he is doing anything explicitly illegal. Adding the VIN to the car as a branded-title rebody many more be illegal in some states also, but that is tricky water with almost no legitimate reward.

In this case, buyer knows what they are getting, and what the implications may be. The goal here should be to protect the *next buyer in line from a VIN swapped. Prevent a completed transaction. This ebay auction is just noise. If the VIN doesn’t sell on eBay at top dollar, it will sell in a dark alleyway for less. The seller is being opportunistic, but the *buyer is likely planning fraudulent activity.

So the best we can do is get the VIN out there. I have seen about 6 e9 VIN swaps in the past couple of years. Some on low dollar cars, and some on nicely restored top dollar cars. I have only called out one of these cars here (to my regret). Each car is discussed privately with interested forensic e9 enthusiasts. BaT has sold a few, respected auction houses have sold them. It is tricky to call these out because it puts the seller in a bad position if they were a victim of VIN fraud. Also, there could be seemingly nothing wrong with the lovely vehicle that has been kept on the road. I would hazard to guess that most E9/2002
VIN swaps are due to rust mitigation and the desire to keep a chassis rolling. This isn’t the case when you pop a CSL VIN on a 2800 CS, or a tii VIN on a base model ‘02.

I recommend that someone make a post about this on 2002 FAQ to lock the VIN into the internet archive for all time. I need to tread water a bit, but I tend to have little empathy for someone who buys a classic car without researching the car before hand. A 60yo enthusiast has had 25 years to learn to navigate the internet. Someone like myself has been using the internet since late high school. Younger memebers do not know life
without data at thumbs-reach. If you do
the work aka (google search and light browsing), it is likely you won’t be a victim.

I harken to post 1-20 when I bought my rust bucket. I joined the forum, I posed the “should I
buy it” question. I quickly received doomsday warnings by forum elders. At that point my subsequent purchase was based on arrogance and naive optimism,
and not pure ignorance.
 

Ohmess

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I've updated my report to the Tarrant County Texas to reflect the expiration of the listing and the new listing.
 

autokunst

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I‘m certainly no lawyer but don’t think that he is doing anything explicitly illegal. Adding the VIN to the car as a branded-title rebody many more be illegal in some states also, but that is tricky water with almost no legitimate reward.

In this case, buyer knows what they are getting, and what the implications may be. The goal here should be to protect the *next buyer in line from a VIN swapped. Prevent a completed transaction. This ebay auction is just noise. If the VIN doesn’t sell on eBay at top dollar, it will sell in a dark alleyway for less. The seller is being opportunistic, but the *buyer is likely planning fraudulent activity.

So the best we can do is get the VIN out there. I have seen about 6 e9 VIN swaps in the past couple of years. Some on low dollar cars, and some on nicely restored top dollar cars. I have only called out one of these cars here (to my regret). Each car is discussed privately with interested forensic e9 enthusiasts. BaT has sold a few, respected auction houses have sold them. It is tricky to call these out because it puts the seller in a bad position if they were a victim of VIN fraud. Also, there could be seemingly nothing wrong with the lovely vehicle that has been kept on the road. I would hazard to guess that most E9/2002
VIN swaps are due to rust mitigation and the desire to keep a chassis rolling. This isn’t the case when you pop a CSL VIN on a 2800 CS, or a tii VIN on a base model ‘02.

I recommend that someone make a post about this on 2002 FAQ to lock the VIN into the internet archive for all time. I need to tread water a bit, but I tend to have little empathy for someone who buys a classic car without researching the car before hand. A 60yo enthusiast has had 25 years to learn to navigate the internet. Someone like myself has been using the internet since late high school. Younger memebers do not know life
without data at thumbs-reach. If you do
the work aka (google search and light browsing), it is likely you won’t be a victim.

I harken to post 1-20 when I bought my rust bucket. I joined the forum, I posed the “should I
buy it” question. I quickly received doomsday warnings by forum elders. At that point my subsequent purchase was based on arrogance and naive optimism,
and not pure ignorance.
Fair enough point. I am not a legal expert on this either. But from a policy perspective, eBay has a category that specifically lists this as a reason to report. So that's where my motivation is rooted.

As for shifting the "crime" onto the buyer, I am not sure I entirely buy that. Who's worse, the pusher or the addict? Wow, what a grim analogy. o_O
 

Markos

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Fair enough point. I am not a legal expert on this either. But from a policy perspective, eBay has a category that specifically lists this as a reason to report. So that's where my motivation is rooted.

As for shifting the "crime" onto the buyer, I am not sure I entirely buy that. Who's worse, the pusher or the addict? Wow, what a grim analogy. o_O

Just to clarify, I segregated legality from morality, and ebay policy. Clearly this isn’t an alarming policy issue for ebay. Legality is questionable.
 

HB Chris

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VIN swaps are illegal and selling vin tags on eBay is against their policy for good reason. Yes, they happen under the table all the time but that doesn’t make it right. Whomever buys a supposed Tii that has a vin swap is the victim. Seller and buyer if he finds one are both complicit. Further discussion not needed.
 

Markos

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I bought a parts car with the VIN cut off. Thankfully it still had the VIN on the WA import tag and title. Noted that the car is destroyed in the registry.

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