Starter relay retrofit

lsquaredb

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Hi Everyone,

My starter doesn't always engage fully resulting in a horrible loud scraping noise. This seems to happen when the battery is run down a little. I want to install a Bosch WR 1 relay so the starter solenoid gets full battery voltage rather than a reduced voltage from going through the ignition switch. Anyway, the instructions are for a starter with one spade connector; my car is an automatic and has two. One goes to a 1 mm diameter black/red wire that goes to terminal 16 on coil; the other goes to a 2.5mm diameter black wire to plug board 4. I think the black wire may end up connecting to the neutral safety switch via another relay, but haven't traced that yet. Is the black wire the one I use to energize the HR1 or is it the red/black wire? Thanks.

Leonard

'70 2800CSA
 

HB Chris

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Seems to me that the easier solution is to install a lightweight permanent magnet starter, have you considered that?
 

lsquaredb

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I might do that someday, but this starter is fairly new, and I'm not sure that removing the rear carb and manifold is easier than hooking up a few wires. I figured out the wiring and hooked up the relay, and so far it's working great. The starter engages quicker and no more grinding.
 

bluecoupe30!

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I might do that someday, but this starter is fairly new, and I'm not sure that removing the rear carb and manifold is easier than hooking up a few wires. I figured out the wiring and hooked up the relay, and so far it's working great. The starter engages quicker and no more grinding.
I understand your reluctance to remove carb + manifold. I struggled with that as well. Then discovered if I remove starter solenoid first, the 2 starter bolts can be accessed using an obstruction wrench. It is bent fairly significantly, and with some patience and luck, you can work that starter up and out. Reassembly is reverse, of course. Good luck. Mike
 

teahead

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I might do that someday, but this starter is fairly new, and I'm not sure that removing the rear carb and manifold is easier than hooking up a few wires. I figured out the wiring and hooked up the relay, and so far it's working great. The starter engages quicker and no more grinding.


Care to share how you did the wiring?
 

lsquaredb

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I'll share the wiring when I have the car put back together and I know it's working properly. With the relay, the loud grinding is happening about 20% as often as before, but has not gone completely away.

I took off the carbs, so I could go through them systematically to try to fix and idle problem. With the carbs off, I noticed that coolant was leaking from the manifolds, so I took the manifolds off so I could replace the coolant gaskets. With all that stuff out of the way, I thought it would be a good time to replace the starter. I got a Bosch SR444X which had been recommended on this site. It went in much, much easier than the old starter came out. Today I ran into a problem when attempting to to reinstall the manifold. The starter solenoid in the SR444X is farther away from the block than the old starter and interferes with the bottom of the manifold, so the manifold won't fit. On the SR444X, the solenoid is mid way between the mounting ears, on the old starter (SR71X), it's much closer to one ear. I suppose the correct solution would be to replace the Zeniths with three side-draft Webers to clear the starter, but I'm going to put the older starter back.

Leonard
'70 2800CSA
 

Honolulu

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Leonard, hold on a minute there big fella!

IMNSHO... the problem isn't the starter at all, it's (maybe) a low amperage battery, but much more likely that the solenoid isn't performing correctly. A bad battery would result in no activation at all, or just stuttering clicking, or be unable to crank the engine over. You can have the battery load tested, usually for free, to rule that out. I've had starter difficulties only twice in my three dozen or so bimmers. One, a '70 2002a, had a bad starter shaft bushing resulting in mismatch between the pinion and ring gears. That one was solved with a modified nylon bushing from a 320i.

The other was much more recent but still a couple years ago: grinding and failure to engage on the CS, with a known good battery. Yes, starter removal is a real piece of work and that's just the way it is. I got the starter out and bench tested it. I found that activating the solenoid wasn't energetically throwing the starter pinion gear out to where it would properly engage the flywheel ring gear. Further, accessing the solenoid contacts required unsoldering the braided wire from solenoid to starter, and I didn't have decent heat source. I settled for spraying some WD40 into the pivot point of the solenoid lever and on the starter shaft, and working it by hand until the pinion gear activated freely.

The only bad electrical motor I dealt with was a Volvo wiper motor, where the magnets had become unglued from the case. I used epoxy to set them back and alles gut! Could have bought a new wiper motor but no... not the chosen path for Frugal MacDougal..

Functionally, turning the ignition key serves to ground the solenoid, activates an strong electromagnetic coil which thrusts the pinion gear rearward where it engages the flywheel ring gear. Activating the solenoid also grounds the starter. Remember the battery hot wire runs directly to the starter, providing it with full voltage at all times, but to run, the electrical path through the starter needs to be grounded by the solenoid action closing internal contacts.

Back in the day, air-cooled V-dubs (I had seven) would develop a weak starter solenoid. The answer with those was to mound a hefty relay back there, rather than replace the solenoid, because to do so was cheaper. You seem to be taking this path, but I suggest your solenoid be proven good first.

Some additional points, though: as some have suggested a new starter would solve the problem because the new starter would come with a new solenoid and both would have clean bright contact terminals (have you checked yours, including grounds and battery connections? There's also the sex appeal of a newer possibly more powerful starter. I once put in a stronger starter from a later 5 series my 2002 tii. It spun faster... a little... but that was never a car with starting problems in the first place, so the realized benefit was mostly mental. You can do that, but I think all paths appear to require removal of your present starter.

'Scuse me for going on and on, but all of us home wrenchbending knucklebusters can use a little guidance from time to time. Hope you find this useful. At least, if someone digs this up later, there's a record of an alternative approach. Add value, see below!
 

Mike Goble

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Functionally, turning the ignition key serves to ground the solenoid, activates an strong electromagnetic coil which thrusts the pinion gear rearward where it engages the flywheel ring gear. Activating the solenoid also grounds the starter. Remember the battery hot wire runs directly to the starter, providing it with full voltage at all times, but to run, the electrical path through the starter needs to be grounded by the solenoid action closing internal contacts.

Actually, the frame of the starter motor is the ground, as is the frame of the solenoid. The key switch puts 12v to the solenoid. When the solenoid engages fully it provides 12v to the motor. It also provides 12v directly to the coil. The starter is #18 in this diagram:

autobooks_manual_154.jpg
 
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