Maximillian for Coupe Parts

[Stan]

Back in the day, I bought parts from Maximillian. It seems for the longest time they dropped off our radar and then today I got an email from them. They use the same parts catalog as RealOEM

http://www.bimmer.com/?mc_cid=d5c054d195&mc_eid=6a1ff8769b

 

[HB Chris]

More work to navigate though as you have to know your subgroups first.

 

[JayWltrs]

Was on their site yesterday. I’d assumed they retained some affiliation with BMW Classics, is that correct? Their prices seem to be identical to dealer prices, like BMW South Atlanta. But they list some interesting things in stock which just come up as NLA on dealer sites or the BMW Classics site.

 

[HB Chris]

They are no different than any other reseller of products from BMW. I don’t think they have anything that BMW doesn’t have.

 

[wab_jr]

Was on their site yesterday. I’d assumed they retained some affiliation with BMW Classics, is that correct? Their prices seem to be identical to dealer prices, like BMW South Atlanta. But they list some interesting things in stock which just come up as NLA on dealer sites or the BMW Classics site.

Their parts listing availability is not current. I ordered several pieces that were NLA everywhere else only to be emailed that my pieces were in fact NLA.

I had a conversation with Frank Patek, executive director of BMWCCA while he was in Germany meeting with BMW on several topics, including NLA parts. Here is his response:

“I am afraid that I have nothing to share that will improve the situation. The people at Classic are sensitive to the issue, but the folks responsible for making money are not. They want Classic to stand alone as a profit center, but seem unwilling to invest in the ground game to turn it into one.”

 

[Stan]

One would assume they have the molds and jibs to make all of the parts for an E9 or E10 but that may be an incorrect assumption based upon the poor fit of some of the newly manufactured parts for our cars.
"why would you want an old BMW when you could buy a new high tech BMW??"

 

[JFENG]

Generally the parts suppliers have physical possession of tooling and the OEM owns the tooling more than 1/2 of the time. Suppliers (like Hella), often retain the tooling for many years so they can make small Batches of service parts. At some point in time there is no more need for service parts (per the OEM). The tooling is then tossed or stored ($), or sometimes sold off th aftermarket parts suppliers. It would be interesting to see what tooling BMW has retrived from their supply base and retained. If the demand were great enough, I could see a group of enthusiasts asking to rent the tooling from BMW and agreeing to pay a small per piece royalty to used them.

 

[HB Chris]

John,

I think BMW never had the tooling, their suppliers did. They didn’t even have the capacity to assemble the coupes hence Karmann entered the picture. You are right, they own the design. As the tooling aged and without significant demand until recent years they just sold from inventory and the tooling may have been scrapped. They are the first ones to blame their suppliers which is not fair. They told me in Monterey that they didn’t have taillights because Hella had the rights to them. Blatantly false.

 

[Stan]

Also, I am pretty sure that someone communicated with Hella to inquire if they could produce more and the response was no.

 

[m5bb]

John,

I think BMW never had the tooling, their suppliers did. They didn’t even have the capacity to assemble the coupes hence Karmann entered the picture. You are right, they own the design. As the tooling aged and without significant demand until recent years they just sold from inventory and the tooling may have been scrapped. They are the first ones to blame their suppliers which is not fair. They told me in Monterey that they didn’t have taillights because Hella had the rights to them. Blatantly false.

Yes, Chris I've heard that same tail at Amelia a few years ago about Hella having rights and also that the lights can't pass the lighting regulations in Germany for them to be sold again. This is all just dodging the bullet and BS. I was there when Mario Langsten got into them about all the parts that didn't fit and all the parts he couldn't get. This whole scenario goes on in the E30 M3 group as well, especially since those cars have appreciated so much.
I'm afraid the sad story is they really don't care. It's all about the new cars and money they can make. This classic stuff is just a PIA.
Of course my 5 year tale about the headlight grills. Latest promise is March 2019. They admit that the manufacturing is going to a supplier but say they don't have the tooling or the materials or anything else they can think of to pass the buck.
And now I have a defective part I bought for my M5 and they replaced it and it was leaking by the time I drove 7 miles home. It's a heater water control valve in the engine compartment. Now a friend has had the same problem. There policy is they will replace a part one time and after that, too bad. So that takes my car off the street and I couldn't drive it. Luckily I have figured out a way to work around this but the guys that don't have that ability are parked.

If they would be willing to let parts manufacturing go to the aftermarket like Porsche has then it would not be this bad.

Maybe a mass letter writing to BMWNA by all the BMW car forum members would at least let them know the significance in numbers. Yeah, right!

BTW I see Mario has Porsche service and restoration on his site now.

 

[JFENG]

John,

I think BMW never had the tooling, their suppliers did. They didn’t even have the capacity to assemble the coupes hence Karmann entered the picture. You are right, they own the design. As the tooling aged and without significant demand until recent years they just sold from inventory and the tooling may have been scrapped. They are the first ones to blame their suppliers which is not fair. They told me in Monterey that they didn’t have taillights because Hella had the rights to them. Blatantly false.

Chris
For years one of my groups sources speaker parts from suppliers around the world. As said in my post, the suppliers generally have possession of tooling, but ownership can go many ways. One of our long time partners in Europe IS a tail light assembly supplier to the German automotive OEM’s (not BMW, the other 2).

In some cases it’s a three way deal where an automotive OEM owns the tooling, the assembly supplier designs and has the tooling made up, and the manufacturer of the part (in china) would have possession of the tooling . It’s always interesting when a mfg supplier goes chapter 11 and tries to locks the gates with an OEM’s tooling inside. If they succeed they have a pretty big bargaining chip with the OEM and Assembly supplier.

As you say, In the end, the tooling owners decide what’s done with them when they are no longer needed. Tooling is often scrapped. In our case , we usually destroy the tooling specifically to prevent unauthorized reuse (the Bose logo often is part of the tooling).

Because tail lights are so vehicle specific, most tail light assembly suppliers prefer to have the OEM own the tooling because the owner pays for the tooling and it’s upkeep. Our rule was tooling which was reusable across different business deals was worth owning, and all else was paid for by the OEM.

 

[JayWltrs]

Scaling aside, if the tooling or mold isn't 100% necessary with 3D printing or even creating a CAD and burning a new mold, however, the question to me is whether BMW or Hella, regardless of any deal between them, still actually retains any rights to the design after 50 years. I'm not an IP expert but I thought design patents in the US ended after 14 years or something like that. You might not be able to sell it with the "Hella" or roundel, which are trademarked, but I'll try to figure out who can do what (or, more precisely, ask someone else to tell me).

I think John's right, though, and there just hasn't been enough of a market to induce anyone to restart production on any scale. If someone can make the different parts in small lots using essentially the same equipment and change the economics for small runs, I'm guessing BMW will gladly accept the free royalty cash on that and be happy to take credit for it to the old car owners.

 

[bluecoupe30!]

I think Jay is on to something regarding just how long these exclusive rights to a piece of a 46 year old car officially apply. I mean, I am no legal expert either, but google statute of limitations, patents and so on, and the period can be a handful of years. I will not jump to conclusions, but it is easy to intimidate when the Goliath is a mega size German Auto company, and they can say whatever they like if they really do not want to go to the trouble to run a small batch of rare parts they used to make, but how long can they really claim to own rights to everything? Mike

 

[aearch]

WAY TOO EXPENSIVE

 

[rsporsche]

i believe that the ONLY thing they can control (for certain) is their Roundel or BMW trademark. if the roundel is removed, its perhaps a different discussion. now with that being said, the big elephant in the room had their lawyers shut down some 3d printing of our friend Markos ... for something that didn't have their Roundel on it. If the design patents are expired, and their are no trademarks on the piece ... and if we haven't taken intellectual property to build something in a special way ... there is a chance. but the billion dollar mega company has a string of lawyers to bully their way thru.

 

[bluecoupe30!]

Well, yes, I know. Lawyers can be very effective at intimidation. And I recall those a/c faceplates getting identified as some sort of threat to the mega company. But today we have social media and many who may think that it is time to let the enthusiasts have a chance at maintaining the cars the mega company loves to have on their car lots and at celebrations of "heritage" and such. However, it is my opinion, that, maybe, just maybe, if there is no other source of new parts, the public, who for the most part would be customers of new models, would support initiative and resourcefulness of owners who just would like to keep their older models together.

 

[JayWltrs]

i believe that the ONLY thing they can control (for certain) is their Roundel or BMW trademark. if the roundel is removed, its perhaps a different discussion. now with that being said, the big elephant in the room had their lawyers shut down some 3d printing of our friend Markos ... for something that didn't have their Roundel on it. If the design patents are expired, and their are no trademarks on the piece ... and if we haven't taken intellectual property to build something in a special way ... there is a chance. but the billion dollar mega company has a string of lawyers to bully their way thru.

Haven't had much time to look into it and don't disagree, but other things could be at play in Markos' offering. I didn't look closely enough to remember Markos' part or how he phrased his offering. He could have unintentionally suggested something they might claim was passing off or confusion as to source. They might claim the fact it is on the internet implicates international laws that might be more strict in Curacao or under some BS state's IP rights. Along the same lines, it appears some countries recognize a copyright-type claim when you use an original design to create a CAD file.

Funny thing. Found out this afternoon I have to be in court in Spartanburg, SC on Monday. After I figure out where it is and how to get there, I think I'll try to build in some time for the museum. If anyone knows someone I might talk with while I'm there, shoot me the contact information.

 

[HB Chris]

Visit the CCA Foundation, there is no factory museum.

 

[JayWltrs]

Visit the CCA Foundation, there is no factory museum.

Great. This place isn't worth it? https://www.bmwusfactory.com/zentrum/general-information/zentrum-information/

 

[dbower]

Jay: If you mean the BMW CCA Foundation Museum (with the current 2002 exhibit), Michael Mitchell ([email protected]) can answer any questions. If you're talking about the BMW factory, they don't have a museum. The Zentrum is the public welcome area of the factory and routinely exhibits a variety of BMW's, new and old. Be sure to confirm hours of operation of both. Michael has many contacts at the factory and could advise you if you have specific interests there.

Don