e9 Torque and HP handling issues

[brammo]

Hi again

More research going on here. Curious if you anyone can tell me if an e9 with a considerable increase in HP and Torque would require more than the front shock tower mount brace? Is there any need to connect or "ladder" the subchassis?

Does anyone know how much HP/TQ an e9 rear end handle? Are their aftermarket updated ones available? LSD?

Finally - what is the biggest HP/Torque anyone has seen in an e9 and if you drove it, how was it with more behind the pedal?

Thanks

Craig

 

[CSLCOUPE]

Whats considerable increased HP ?,,,,, are you installing an LS-3 ?

 

[rb1971]

I would be pretty careful with a significant HP upgrade without substantial work to reduce chassis flex. Remember this is a 40-year-old B-pillarless body. I'm running about 2x stock HP - I've strengthened the floor under the seats and tubbed the trunk (including adding substantial cross bracing under the brace, and an X-brace between the stock towers). I'm not saying all of what I did is necessary, but a good portion of it is advisable.

I've heard from my diff builder that side loaders can be made to handle up to 400HP without going to exotic materials.

 

[x_atlas0]

Coupeking has some strengthening techniques shown on their website. A good bit of improvement can be had by fully seam-welding certain interior panels, instead of just short welds.

Most people have said that anything more than ~300 at the wheels causes fatigue problems.

 

[nimble_n_quick]

Like others said, e9s are old cars and things break faster when more stress is applied. Here is what happened to my rear diff mount with a stock euro 3.5:

There are reinforcement kits that repair/prevent future failures at this location, but once one component is strengthened the added stress is transferred to the next "weakest link". Have a look through this thread to see what types of reinforcements you might consider:

http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5661

 

[decoupe]

What you intend for your car will also dictate what you can practically do to strengthen the chassis. Seam welding will improve things with no impact on appearance or use http://www.coupeking.com/category/tips-for-restoration . Add front rear shock/strut braces will also help with a little impact on the trunk. Diff brace and gussets in some strategic locations are out of site and are on my list. Beyond this you enter the major impact on both use and appearance but start to really make a difference to the stiffness of the chassis. I have relegated the rear seats to office furniture and added a half roll cage that will have some additional bracing at the floor to the front quarters and looking at options for the roof (structural foam in jection in the pillars) http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g120/decoupe/Roll Bar Prep and Seam Weld/ but will not be going much beyond this or it will cease to be convenient to use without a helmet. The lafngrvy Jagermeister CSL mentioned is amazing.

Lots of options.

 

[brammo]

E9 HP handling

This is great information, thanks very much.

A lot of insight and some thought provoking issues.

I will do a bit more research before going into detail on my project ideas, in hopes of avoiding completely embarrassing myself. I want to keep this as a street car, but as mentioned that Jaegaer car is beautiful and the sponsor brings back foggy but fond memories!

Thank you.

Craig

PS. Found this link, I am sure some of you have seen it. http://www.mko-v8.de/ visit the MKO CS M5 in particular. Interesting shoehorn there..

 

[Stefan]

If your intention wanted to be +100% better than other "muscle US" cars.....
Post former questions to this Swedish fellow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRioZJqTwKQ

No, I do not know him.

Yes, a bit weird,

Yes, some respect for doing this with the E9. Yea!

Cheers!

(Ok, this fellow doing weird stuff with our "precious" )

 

[m5bb]

If your intention wanted to be +100% better than other "muscle US" cars.....
Post former questions to this Swedish fellow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRioZJqTwKQ

No, I do not know him.

Yes, a bit weird,

Yes, some respect for doing this with the E9. Yea!

Cheers!

(Ok, this fellow doing weird stuff with our "precious" )

That's crazy but I had a big sh#* eating grin on my face while watching.
Hopefully that was one of the cars with confectionery fenders.:smile:
Those Swedish and Scandinavian guys do some weird stuff with turbos.

Back to the OP. There are a few S38 (M5M6 engine) coupes rolling around the US. Saw one at Hilton Head Concours last year. That's 255 HP stock and in my case 345 in my E28 M5.

 

[brammo]

Reasons for more chassis rigidity....

 

[Stefan]

Please tell us all about the www.mko-v8.de correct?

 

[brammo]

Mko v8

Please tell us all about the www.mko-v8.de correct?

I heard about this car on my last visit to Germany, but did not have time to visit, so I hope to go to MKO next time I am there.

Apparently they took an e39 M5 and put not only the drivetrain but the modern dash, 6 speed and ABS, etc.

I found this excerpt from a german magazine. With google translate you can get to the heart of it, but essentially it says what I have told you above.

http://www.fxgraphix.de/mko/source/presse/bmw_power_5-12.pdf

This is the PDF file of the car.

They also did a V8 in 2002. Which was another project I have pondered.

http://www.fxgraphix.de/mko/source/presse/Blackmagazine.pdf

This article revealed more. I was curious about the shock towers in the CS, as they look like the E39 towers, sure enough:

"Michael raised the ramp the CS was on and I was astonished to
see that it was actually a 3.0CS body on a shortened E39 M5
chassis. One of the best engines and chassis BMW has ever made
combined with one of their most beautiful classic body designs.
With the wider tracks of the M5, the CS’s bodyshell had to be
subtly altered with wider wheelarch flares. In the case of the
rear, the flaring starts at the sill area in front of the rear arches
but you have to look closely to spot it.
With its wider tracks, lower ride height and modern alloy
wheels the CS Coupé takes on a much meaner and more
purposeful stance than the original. I have to confess that the
look of this modern classic with its slim roof pillars appeals to
me more than most current cars regardless of cost.
Despite the 3,000 man-hours it takes to build the CS/M5, it
costs just 150,000 euros (SGD250,000). “This is because I use a
workshop in Romania for the major work,” he explained."

Okay - so this is a 250k car?

Craig

 

[brammo]

Turning into a project?

Okay - the problem seems to be getting worse. I can not let go of this idea. I have done some odd things with motors and cars in the past, but this one seems too good to not try. You would think after hitting 50 this lunacy would stop.

So the concept is pretty simple. Build an E9 based 4.0 CSI, based on the 2008 BMW S65 V8. The idea would be if BMW was building an e9 in 2008, as a retro model and had to use the previous skin, what would they put in it?

These engines are about 30 lbs heavier than the 6 cylinder and are very dense. The 6 speed gearbox seems to be a pretty close fit as well from simple math, but obviously it is time to either render it all up in cad or try the garage fit.

The problem? I have no E9 yet. Lets see if this really takes hold or is based on the fact I already bought the drivetrain.

My question to all is, would anyone recommend someone to blueprint one of these? No need to stroke, I think I am going to have ample power and torque for this chassis. *Dinan and RDsport both do a 4.7 Liter stroker out of this hitting 500hp. I imagine they would be very expensive to blueprint and refresh this motor: 11,000 miles:

Tell me I am crazy.

 

[x_atlas0]

Ok, you are crazy. :razz:

How would you make this thing run short of transplanting all the electronics?

 

[brammo]

Ok, you are crazy. :razz:

How would you make this thing run short of transplanting all the electronics?

Based on the research i have been doing, there is an aftermarket ECU that will manage the system without all the harness connects. You still need a lot of sensors and inputs, but you can apparently replace the existing ECU and Engine management harness. They do this for race cars a lot, but very few have been done that I have found on a resto-mod like this, so you have hit the biggest concern outside of physical constraints.

My plan if I go through with this would be to have the engine blueprinted and then tuned and run on a dyno with the aftermarket ECU. This ECU apparently supports the sequential injection and wideband and dual lambda inputs as well as dual VANOS and drive by wire. Traditionally they are used with a digital dash, but I think there is a way to get digital inputs to the dash, but more work to be done here..

Being able to do it and doing it, are always two separate things, I know.

I think the challenge is to make it as practical and reliable as possible. I know Dinan uses this ECU on their wilder engine builds.

I am 100% yet, still exploring and seeing if I can find the right folks to help with some or all. Talking to Ron Perry for one. He has been invaluable with learning about the E9s thus far.

His work with modified 6's sure would be easier.

Craig

 

[WALTER]

Based on your location, you may want to try M&B Cylinder Heads in Portland. I have no experience with them, but they have some YouTube videos building a 1000 hp BMW engine (turbo). Their build is very nice and the builder sounds like he knows what he is talking about.
I don't know how to add the YouTube link from my iPad so here is the search: secrets of the HPF 1000 RWHP Daily Driven BMW M3 Race Engine.

Good luck with your project, it sounds killer. I like the idea behind the MKO project, but I would have kept the original interior. It seems like you will try to make the engine work around the rest of the car instead of the other way around. Keep us posted.

 

[brammo]

M&B - thanks for the lead

Based on your location, you may want to try M&B Cylinder Heads in Portland. I have no experience with them, but they have some YouTube videos building a 1000 hp BMW engine (turbo). Their build is very nice and the builder sounds like he knows what he is talking about.
I don't know how to add the YouTube link from my iPad so here is the search: secrets of the HPF 1000 RWHP Daily Driven BMW M3 Race Engine.

Good luck with your project, it sounds killer. I like the idea behind the MKO project, but I would have kept the original interior. It seems like you will try to make the engine work around the rest of the car instead of the other way around. Keep us posted.

Thanks - I will give them a call. Looks like a great shop. Videos are insane really! I do love the MKO. He said he could build another for 220k, using about 9 months and thousands of hours of Romanian labor. Sounds great, but...

Craig

 

[x_atlas0]

Based on the research i have been doing, there is an aftermarket ECU that will manage the system without all the harness connects. You still need a lot of sensors and inputs, but you can apparently replace the existing ECU and Engine management harness. They do this for race cars a lot, but very few have been done that I have found on a resto-mod like this, so you have hit the biggest concern outside of physical constraints.

My plan if I go through with this would be to have the engine blueprinted and then tuned and run on a dyno with the aftermarket ECU. This ECU apparently supports the sequential injection and wideband and dual lambda inputs as well as dual VANOS and drive by wire. Traditionally they are used with a digital dash, but I think there is a way to get digital inputs to the dash, but more work to be done here..

Being able to do it and doing it, are always two separate things, I know.

I think the challenge is to make it as practical and reliable as possible. I know Dinan uses this ECU on their wilder engine builds.

I am 100% yet, still exploring and seeing if I can find the right folks to help with some or all. Talking to Ron Perry for one. He has been invaluable with learning about the E9s thus far.

His work with modified 6's sure would be easier.

Craig

The only two I know of are the high-end Motec and Autronic units, and that applied to the S62, which is a whole generation behind this one. Tuning will be tricky to say the least. On the plus side, though, it isn't a GDI engine, that makes things much easier.

As far as the cluster goes, I ended up leaving all the mechanical inputs intact where I could, as they all have direct sensors. The tach runs off the coil, the speedo off a cable drive, and the coolant has it's own sensor in the thermostat housing. All of those are either still going to be in the new engine or easy enough to make work. The speedo can be handled using a signal generator and hall sensor off the driveshaft, based on some communication with North Hollywood Speedometer. The tach may be tricky since it is set up for 6 cylinders, not 8, and it will likely be too slow to react given the engine's peaky nature. It has trouble keeping up now with my M30 and a lightweight flywheel.

 

[brammo]

Pectel ECU - SQ6

I have done a few projects with Motec, Never the Autronic.

I am looking at the Pectel ECU - SQ6 Model. Below is a snippet from Apex Technology that specializes in S65 and BMW applications of the Pectel:

"Apex Speed Technology is proud to offer its Pectel SQ6 kit for use in your S65
BMW application. It is one of the most powerful ECUs on the market, with the
ability to run dual VANOS and drive by wire, traction control, knock control, data
logging and more. This system will even run the stock variable speed fan & oil
level sensor. Its perfect for naturally aspirated, turbocharged, supercharged and
even nitrous applications.
This system is excellent for full race cars and engine swaps. Our harness allows
you to convert an S65 into a full race car with a simple ignition switch, starter
button, map switch & fuel pump relay control. Simply hook up power & ground
from a kills witch or other source, and you're ready to go! Apex also offers plug &
play swap kits for many OBD-I chassis including E30 and E36 BMWs which allow
you to retain all the stock controls and instruments. These harnesses plug
directly into stock chassis connectors for seamless integration.
This system has the ability to integrate with Pi, AIM, MOTEC and most other
dashes, and uses a modified stock harness for true plug & play operation. It
features many options, including a custom harness that can integrate with stock
E92 M3 ABS systems. Options include traction control, digital dash displays,
advanced data logging, GPS and more.
This system offers much more power & flexibility than stock or lower-end ECUs.
Apex Speed Technology is an industry leader in BMW S65 engine management,
having worked with systems in Grand Am, ALMS, BMW CCA, NASA, SCCA and
more. Our BMW customers include Dinan Engineering and Turner Motorsports,
as well as dozens of top-level racing teams."

Anyone dealt with Apex? When I spoke to Dinan, they confirmed they have worked with them. I guess they often use the Pectel on their S65 4.7 Liter stroker motor.

Interesting thing, Dinan builds the 4.7 Stroker for 27-30k, but the real shocker is the 20k core charge if you don't supply the 4.0 motor.

Thanks for the responses and the insight on gauges.

Craig

The only two I know of are the high-end Motec and Autronic units, and that applied to the S62, which is a whole generation behind this one. Tuning will be tricky to say the least. On the plus side, though, it isn't a GDI engine, that makes things much easier.

As far as the cluster goes, I ended up leaving all the mechanical inputs intact where I could, as they all have direct sensors. The tach runs off the coil, the speedo off a cable drive, and the coolant has it's own sensor in the thermostat housing. All of those are either still going to be in the new engine or easy enough to make work. The speedo can be handled using a signal generator and hall sensor off the driveshaft, based on some communication with North Hollywood Speedometer. The tach may be tricky since it is set up for 6 cylinders, not 8, and it will likely be too slow to react given the engine's peaky nature. It has trouble keeping up now with my M30 and a lightweight flywheel.

 

[CSLCOUPE]

Okay -

Just need to find the rest of it (M3), and your all set