123ignition distributor install

[JFENG]

Getting it to suck

Steve,
that's really helpful. Thanks.
I don't recall seeing anything but the brake booster port on the Alpina intake manifold. The less visually obvious place, as you say, is to tap the #6 runner. The nice thing about the Alpina setup (which Korman said is not as good as individual pod filters) is that it hides all that pretty hardware under the plenum box. Someone should make a clear lexan copy of the Alpina Plenum and just paint the A-L-P-I-N-A black. ... that'd be cool.

 

[Stevehose]

I also love the look of the Alpina airbox, the only downside is that it will muffle the intake noise and I want all of that I can get :grin:

I am going to order up some longer (and higher quality) trumpets from DellortoUK for my next frivolous Weber expenditure. They have the nicest I've seen.

The nice thing about the Alpina setup (which Korman said is not as good as individual pod filters) is that it hides all that pretty hardware under the plenum box. Someone should make a clear lexan copy of the Alpina Plenum and just paint the A-L-P-I-N-A black. ... that'd be cool.

 

[deQuincey]

Steve,
that's really helpful. Thanks.
I don't recall seeing anything but the brake booster port on the Alpina intake manifold. The less visually obvious place, as you say, is to tap the #6 runner. The nice thing about the Alpina setup (which Korman said is not as good as individual pod filters) is that it hides all that pretty hardware under the plenum box. Someone should make a clear lexan copy of the Alpina Plenum and just paint the A-L-P-I-N-A black. ... that'd be cool.

steve,
there is a guy that have gorgeous replicas of the alpina plenum that you mentioned
exact in every detail, perfect
i have had them in my hands feeling the pity of not having a triple weber setup just for being a ble to use it
he is a forum member, daddywad
contact him, he is a very helpful guy

 

[Stevehose]

Yeah I've seen those and they look nice. But that and the intake elbows needed, new intake manifold, thermostat housing and tii booster plus the filter box - that would be very difficult to get past She Who Monitors My Car Purchases.

Plus not sure the elbows are available in my 40mm carb size and I like my trumpet's intake noise anyway.

steve,
there is a guy that have gorgeous replicas of the alpina plenum that you mentioned
exact in every detail, perfect
i have had them in my hands feeling the pity of not having a triple weber setup just for being a ble to use it
he is a forum member, daddywad
contact him, he is a very helpful guy

 

[Tom P]

Steve, what are the effects of teeing into the booster vacuum line? Does it reduce vacuum by 1/2? Also how do you manage PCV with your triples? Are you venting to air or applying vacuum to your valve cover port too or catch can maybe? Trying to decide best set up. I believe applying vacuum there too will affect idle rpm, performance too but I'm new at all this so not sure.

 

[Stevehose]

I don't think it would reduce vacuum as long as there are no leaks, but what it might affect is the response time to the distributor because the big vacuum tank for the booster could act as a reservoir/buffer and delay the signal changes. This issue is discussed on forums where they are trying to smooth out the single runner pulse by installing a reservoir tank in between the vacuum port and the distributor. It smooths the pulse but also delays the signal hitting the distributor depending on the size. That's why I went the way of the anti pulse valve.

Steve, what are the effects of teeing into the booster vacuum line? Does it reduce vacuum by 1/2? Also how do you manage PCV with your triples? Are you venting to air or applying vacuum to your valve cover port too or catch can maybe? Trying to decide best set up. I believe applying vacuum there too will affect idle rpm, performance too but I'm new at all this so not sure.

 

[Tom P]

Thanks Steve... Appreciate your feedback and leading out on this topic...

Any thoughts about my PCV questions?

 

[Stevehose]

Oops sorry - I just vent through a tube down to a catch can. No vacuum. I tried one of those valve cover filters but it just got all clogged up and I don't like the look of it. I also don't want to suck oil vapor back through one of my carbs and gum everything up. You can see it here-the elbow from the valve cover connects to a hose which goes down through the intake manifold then down to the bottom of the block:

Any thoughts about my PCV questions?

 

[JFENG]

Pvc

Easy enough to run that vent in the vc to a port in the base plate on a K&N or other filter that has a flat metal base plate. You could even use a little elbow to it vents directly in front of one of the choke inlets. But why would you do this? I used to use those KN filters in the vc stub, but you have to clean them and they let oily fumes onto the dcoe's. The authentic way is indeed a hose down to the bottom of the engine area.

 

[Luis A.]

Pcv

Doesn't the vacuum (slight) created by the factory running of the PCV into the air filter box create a slight depression in the crankcase which is useful to contain potential oil leaks? Has this been a problem for you at all?

 

[Stevehose]

I think (but not sure) running the pcv into the intake was an emissions idea, before that it was just vented. What you don't want is no venting, that can cause the oil leaks due to pressure build up. I think some engines require a closed system to avoid vacuum leaks?

Doesn't the vacuum (slight) created by the factory running of the PCV into the air filter box create a slight depression in the crankcase which is useful to contain potential oil leaks? Has this been a problem for you at all?

 

[jmackro]

I think (but not sure) running the pcv into the intake was an emissions idea, before that it was just vented.

Yes, I agree. Back in the 60's, that's how engines were built. The vent pipe was called a "road tube" - it allowed oily vapors to vent down onto the road.

Doesn't the vacuum (slight) created by the factory running of the PCV into the air filter box create a slight depression in the crankcase which is useful to contain potential oil leaks?

I think the negative pressure from the air filter is much too low to have any influence over oil leaks.

 

[Drew Gregg]

This morning I experimented with the vacuum advance and the "gear shift retard" theory. With my previous advance curve, it woud add 8 degrees at any vacuum over 6hg or so. This is good for idle and cruising, but in between shifts, the vacuum jumps higher than the idle or cruise levels so it signals the distributor to add advance. So if you're on the throttle and you let up on the pedal between shifts, the advance is too high when you slam back on the gas, it has to sense the dropping vacuum and adjust accordingly and therefore there is a short lag period. By setting the curve to drop out past a certain vacuum level, the timing does not change with very high vacuum, it stays where it is supposed to be with centrifugal/rpm. As a result the timing is right where it should be when going into next gear. The result is a crisper shift. Here is the curve I am using now:

Compared to the previous curves, you can see the addition of advance between the desired vacuum levels, keeping cruise and idle advance in tact within the bell curve, and dropping out under load (on the right) and in between shifts (on the left). The vacuum levels to determine these points are read off the dashboard display's vacuum gauge under various driving conditions.

The engine now pulls stronger into the next gear.
Steve--Doug McKenzie told me to look at your 123 curves. I had the shop set up my 123 and the car runs great and pulls in all 5 gears. I have the blue tooth and haven't even looked at the set-up. Doug drove my car last weekend and said it's fine as it is. They removed the ballast resistor when the 123 was installed. The Accell dizzy was running on OEM points. The coil is also an Accell brand . I want to put in my 12 V blue Bosch coil that I put in my 2002 over 40 years ago. The car has been in the garage for 25 years under a cover. Your thoughts? What's the difference between a blue and red coil? I assume I don't need to install the ballast resistor.
Also, all of your curve images are blanked out as I read this 4 page post. Any Idea why I can't see them? Here's a pic of the coil that's in the car now.
Thanks,
Drew

 

[Stevehose]

Drew, I no longer use vacuum advance with my Webers so that post is out of date. 123 recommends a Bosch red coil so that's what I have used with no problems. Don't use the blue coil because it's internally resisted. You don't need the ballast resistor with the red coil which is higher output than the blue coil so you'd be leaving voltage on the table with the blue coil. I don't know the specs of your Accel coil but you could look it up compared to the red. The bosch looks more appropriate under the hood from an aesthetic side imho. This is my current curve with the "cold start" advance which works great for my triples for the warm up process. What carbs do you have?

 

[Drew Gregg]

Drew, I no longer use vacuum advance with my Webers so that post is out of date. 123 recommends a Bosch red coil so that's what I have used with no problems. Don't use the blue coil because it's internally resisted. You don't need the ballast resistor with the red coil which is higher output than the blue coil so you'd be leaving voltage on the table with the blue coil. I don't know the specs of your Accel coil but you could look it up compared to the red. The bosch looks more appropriate under the hood from an aesthetic side imho. This is my current curve with the "cold start" advance which works great for my triples for the warm up process. What carbs do you have?

View attachment 82126

Steve--I have the 3 DCOE40 type 151 carbs. I agree the Accel yellow coil does not belong in the engine compartment. Any suggestions on where to buy the Bosch red coil?
The previous owner had an Accel points dizzy with the ballast resistor. That's gone and the 123 does work fine with that yellow coil minus the resistor. I had the shop run Dyno tests before the carbs were sorted to see how the engine is running. It's the Korman stage 2 with Stahl headers, lightened flywheel,and the Coupe King exhaust. The rear wheel HP was 170 and the torque was 188 lb/ft. I need to get the video on You-Tube so I can post it here. The car's speedo was at about 120 MPH. Here's are pics of the Dyno graph.

 

[Stevehose]

123 has them:

Bosch Red Coil (Temporarily Unavailable taking Back Orders) 1.8 ohm recommended for 6 and 8cyl applications (Resin Filled)

Your US Distributor of electronic ignition distributors for classic cars 123ignition

123ignitionusa.com

Although you can get them cheaper on Amazon et al:

Amazon.com

If you want to go OCD all the way then NOS German made ones come up on Ebay.de occasionally, that's what I have.

Post your advance curve!

 

[Belgiumbarry]

damned you lux guys ! this week i was fiddling with weights & springs on the Porsche dizzy as electronic is not allowed in historic rallying….
Indeed , webers like a lot of static advance and all in very early at 2500 rpm/max 3000

 

[Stevehose]

@Belgiumbarry, how much static advance are you running?

 

[Belgiumbarry]

to be honest Steve , i don't know. Rally car has a KMS ECU and coilpack which was mapped by my rally shop at the time and never changed.
I do remember the dyno session and they tried total advance untill no more extra power.... but again , i don't remember numbers.
I wil ask when i see the man … or have a look with my timing light.

 

[Stevehose]

I redid my triple Weber throttle plate position vs the progression holes to cure an occasional backfire pop when shifting hard. I lined them up to cover the first hole and expose it at the slightest movement of the throttle. In doing so it lowered my idle so I compensated by bumping the idle advance to 20. Idle rpm now 950 and the car accelerates like stink now, with better AFR's across the board. This is the beauty of the 123 distributor. Latest curve: