Maximillian for Coupe Parts

m5bb

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Haven't had much time to look into it and don't disagree, but other things could be at play in Markos' offering. I didn't look closely enough to remember Markos' part or how he phrased his offering. He could have unintentionally suggested something they might claim was passing off or confusion as to source. They might claim the fact it is on the internet implicates international laws that might be more strict in Curacao or under some BS state's IP rights. Along the same lines, it appears some countries recognize a copyright-type claim when you use an original design to create a CAD file.

Funny thing. Found out this afternoon I have to be in court in Spartanburg, SC on Monday. After I figure out where it is and how to get there, I think I'll try to build in some time for the museum. If anyone knows someone I might talk with while I'm there, shoot me the contact information.

It's just a 10 minute drive north from Spartanburg.
See Michael Mitchell, he's the curator and a good friend to many of us on this forum. They have done some nice exhibits at the Foundation and have more planned.
Here's the website where you can get the address. Check the hours too!
https://bmwccafoundation.org/
 

m5bb

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Jay: If you mean the BMW CCA Foundation Museum (with the current 2002 exhibit), Michael Mitchell ([email protected]) can answer any questions. If you're talking about the BMW factory, they don't have a museum. The Zentrum is the public welcome area of the factory and routinely exhibits a variety of BMW's, new and old. Be sure to confirm hours of operation of both. Michael has many contacts at the factory and could advise you if you have specific interests there.

Don
Don, beat me to it. BTW his beautiful 2002 Baur is on display there. Go see them all.
 

JayWltrs

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Visit the CCA Foundation, there is no factory museum.

Jay: If you mean the BMW CCA Foundation Museum (with the current 2002 exhibit), Michael Mitchell ([email protected]) can answer any questions. If you're talking about the BMW factory, they don't have a museum. The Zentrum is the public welcome area of the factory and routinely exhibits a variety of BMW's, new and old. Be sure to confirm hours of operation of both. Michael has many contacts at the factory and could advise you if you have specific interests there.
It's just a 10 minute drive north from Spartanburg.
See Michael Mitchell, he's the curator and a good friend to many of us on this forum. They have done some nice exhibits at the Foundation and have more planned.
Here's the website where you can get the address. Check the hours too!
https://bmwccafoundation.org/
You guys are a helluva lot better than Google. Adding 16 more hours to my trip won't kill anyone, hopefully. Thanks again.
 
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JFENG

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Scaling aside, if the tooling or mold isn't 100% necessary with 3D printing or even creating a CAD and burning a new mold, however, the question to me is whether BMW or Hella, regardless of any deal between them, still actually retains any rights to the design after 50 years. I'm not an IP expert but I thought design patents in the US ended after 14 years or something like that. You might not be able to sell it with the "Hella" or roundel, which are trademarked, but I'll try to figure out who can do what (or, more precisely, ask someone else to tell me).

I think John's right, though, and there just hasn't been enough of a market to induce anyone to restart production on any scale. If someone can make the different parts in small lots using essentially the same equipment and change the economics for small runs, I'm guessing BMW will gladly accept the free royalty cash on that and be happy to take credit for it to the old car owners.


I thing trade marks don't expire like patents. But I'm not an IP lawyer.
 

JayWltrs

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I thing trade marks don't expire like patents. But I'm not an IP lawyer.

I’m a generalist trail lawyer (or ADHD afflicted BSer), but you are correct. That’s why you generally avoid trademarks when making replacement parts. But manufacturers shouldn’t be able to create a perpetual monopoly on replacement parts beyond any patent period by plastering their marks on everything or incorporating them into the functional or utilitarian design. But they have to protect their marks at the same time from being dilluted or generic. I think the EU & other countries have legislated exceptions for parts bearing a mark that have a functional component. Germany has some ridulous insomia-curing multi-factor test & certification gauntlet for aftermarket parts generally. And I believe there was US proposed legislation along the same lines in recent years which didn’t pass. Again, I’ll get the full lay of the land at some point.
 

Tony.dreamer

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I’m a generalist trail lawyer (or ADHD afflicted BSer), but you are correct. That’s why you generally avoid trademarks when making replacement parts. But manufacturers shouldn’t be able to create a perpetual monopoly on replacement parts beyond any patent period by plastering their marks on everything or incorporating them into the functional or utilitarian design. But they have to protect their marks at the same time from being dilluted or generic. I think the EU & other countries have legislated exceptions for parts bearing a mark that have a functional component. Germany has some ridulous insomia-curing multi-factor test & certification gauntlet for aftermarket parts generally. And I believe there was US proposed legislation along the same lines in recent years which didn’t pass. Again, I’ll get the full lay of the land at some point.
Jay , I am obviously not a lawyer . But(I stayed in Holiday Inn Express ) I am thinking since you are not taking away any revenue/ profit opportunities from the Origional Manufacture that no longer makes the parts, if BMW objects then they shouldn’t have a claim! This holds of course as long as the manufacturer is not producing the parts and if they start making the part then they can claim rights.
The trade mark however is different!
 
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JayWltrs

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As a general matter there’s no production exception to IP rights. For example, Patent trolls are, by definition, non-producing entities. IP rights are as much about excluding as producing. The question is whether the passage of time has caused all rights other than TM to lapse. I’ve been stuck doing client legal work & hope to soon have time to look into this much more interesting issue, esp. 3d printing.


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aearch

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then theres the miriad of manufg
that reproduce every other part you want
i havnt bought a real oem part for my 323i
since i got ten years ago and i've replaced a hundred parts
so whats the big deal about the ac plate!!!!!!!! or side cover that bmw will never make again
stupid
 

bluecoupe30!

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Then there are those OEM parts I purchase for my E39Touring. The ones I get are the same as the dealer item, but have the brand logo just kinda scratched out, and sell for a deep discount over the same part purchased from dealer, with their logo clearly visible. Happy to pay reduced price, and reliability has been same as original equipment-have never had to replace the replacement part.
 

JayWltrs

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So, do we think E9 is being targeted by BMW to preserve potential for high $$ for parts as numbers decline & car prices rise or we’re neglected due to lack of #s sufficient to provide a profitable aftermarket? I lean toward the latter, because aftermarket cos are pretty aggressive. This doesn’t affect rights, necessarily, but it would be important to discuss w BMWNA re if you’re not going to help us, at least step aside to avoid hurting us.
 

JayWltrs

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I've taken this way off topic & beyond parts, but I wanted to say thanks again, all. Didn't learn a darn thing about 3D parts licensing or IP issues, but a great experience and learned alot. Don, the Bower Baur is safe & sound, and now one of my favorite cars. It would fill a Buddhist monk with envy. So many pure examples and works by creative mad men & women, like Terry Sayther's E9 on an e36 M3 race car. [I'll start another topic on the other issues to get out of the parts feed when I feel I have more reliable info.]

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eriknetherlands

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i believe that the ONLY thing they can control (for certain) is their Roundel or BMW trademark. if the roundel is removed, its perhaps a different discussion. now with that being said, the big elephant in the room had their lawyers shut down some 3d printing of our friend Markos ... for something that didn't have their Roundel on it. If the design patents are expired, and their are no trademarks on the piece ... and if we haven't taken intellectual property to build something in a special way ... there is a chance. but the billion dollar mega company has a string of lawyers to bully their way thru.

I think BMW in the past may have had 3 arguments to not produce parts.
1. Economics of scale always applies, and
2. then there is the illegal use of protected logo's (the roundel) as Markos experienced.
3. A third argument could have been that BMW simply was not allowed by the German government to produce these parts. This has recently been solved however. What follows now is a difficult story, and I'm guessing that if this is shared by non-engineering / legal experts, details get lost quickly and versions of the story maynot resemble the actual arguments.

I'll explain: It has to do with technical rules to which automotive components parts need to conform. BMW followed rules that were generally applied in Europe since the 60's, and since have spread to the rest of the world as a sort of standardization. (Some countries choose to keep their own rules; hence the US models have different bumpers, front beams, side markers, ride height, smog equipment etc). A set of rules was in place in Germany when our e9's were produced, and these rules have evolved into much more stringent rules in place today. The technical rule for tail lights is the united nations regulation UN ECE Regulation 7 and Regulation 48. A car manufacturer has to show that the car conforms to all regulations before the model can be approved for road use by a government . (called the approval or homologation process, or 'zulassung' in German done by the KBA organization). If parts are approved, then the 'E' symbol is added to the part and a reference to the approval number. The 2 in 'E2' stands for approvals granted by Germany. E4 is the Netherlands, E1 is France for instance. Original seatbelts and exhaust for instance also show these 'E2' symbols.

Now if a manufacturer stops the production of the car, they also have the choice to stop the production of spare parts, and ask the government to withdraw the official approval for any technically controlled parts, such as the taillight. If BMW withdrew their approval for this part somewhere in the past, then they were officially not allowed by law to start up the production again. If they kept the approval 'dormant', they would have the possibility indefinitely.
Recently however the legal situation changed by the revision 3 of the 1958 agreement of the United Nations. (I'm actually in the UN office in Geneva now writing this, sitting next to the German government officials from ministry and KBA) In order to make it easy for emerging markets to start with vehicle regulations from scratch, industry is now allowed to make vehicle components again to old standards as these may be cheaper then the high specs used in the western world; cheaper meaning that countries may find it easier to put regulations in place for their citizens if the cost burden to their population isn't enormous. Countries could then limit if these 'old technical status' parts are allowed for sale or not.
So with this change, BMW has the formal right to reproduce parts to old technical regulations. Germany does not forbid the sale of these old spec parts.

what remains are the 2 other subjects; can they make money of our backs, and are they OK if we remake parts ourselves using their (protected) logo.

interesting article with more explantion (ironically from Hella...) here:
https://www.hella.com/hella-com/assets/media_global/673_Legal_Requirements_Brochure_HELLA_EN.pdf
 

Stevehose

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Somehow it doesn't stop Porsche and Mercedes from providing parts. Before a recent tour my friend had his alternator go out in his 1957 300sl roadster. Mercedes classic overnighted him a new one the next day.
 

dbower

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I've taken this way off topic & beyond parts, but I wanted to say thanks again, all. Didn't learn a darn thing about 3D parts licensing or IP issues, but a great experience and learned alot. Don, the Bower Baur is safe & sound, and now one of my favorite cars. It would fill a Buddhist monk with envy. So many pure examples and works by creative mad men & women, like Terry Sayther's E9 on an e36 M3 race car. [I'll start another topic on the other issues to get out of the parts feed when I feel I have more reliable info.]

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Thanks, Jay. The Baur is a fun driver and a great complement to our E9. There are many nicer ones out there so it has been a real honor to have it be part of the ICON exhibit. We've missed driving it most of the last year so we're really looking forward to getting it back Jan 20. Already have a new soft top to put on it and some other tweaks. The closing of the ICON exhibit is shaping up to be something special. I recommend you check it out, whether or not you have a 2002.

Don
 

m5bb

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Somehow it doesn't stop Porsche and Mercedes from providing parts. Before a recent tour my friend had his alternator go out in his 1957 300sl roadster. Mercedes classic overnighted him a new one the next day.

RIGHT ON STEVE!
I think a lot of their parts production problem is money. BMW wants to make money. Parts don't work as well for that. So all the regs and rules are just BS for them to say they can't make parts.
 

CSteve

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RIGHT ON STEVE!
I think a lot of their parts production problem is money. BMW wants to make money. Parts don't work as well for that. So all the regs and rules are just BS for them to say they can't make parts.
And are they making money!!! Building cars, and I quote, "that you don't want to be driving out of warranty."
 

m5bb

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And are they making money!!! Building cars, and I quote, "that you don't want to be driving out of warranty."

So right Oneills, friends that know I have BMW's ask me all the time (just yesterday) about buying a newer BMW. I tell them to buy a CPO car with a warranty and that's the only way I would buy one.
 

rsporsche

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perhaps Gary, it makes sense to not buy the depreciation, but get a full warranty ... i find that the one manufacturer that has a meaningful CPO program is Porsche. they do a full diagnostic testing of every car as a CPO, give the buyer the report including all of the test data and what they replaced. when i bought my cayman s (4 years old, they replaced the drivers door window motor for instance ... because it didn't drop the window quickly enough when lifting the door handle and then raising it back properly when the door was closed, then replaced both cats. in my 911, they later found a leak in the PDK tranny, and instead of telling the dealer to fix it, they shipped a new PDK tranny to the dealer and told them to put it in under warranty - that was a 9500 part (sitting on the ground).

Porsche corporate + dealers will drive cars for up to 7000 miles and then sell them as CPO, they usually end up with 5.5 years of warranty / 100k miles and sell for 85% of new.

okay enough about P cars ... back to coupe programming, but there are no CPO coupes ... plenty of pre-owned.
 
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